Friend confused about getting married

[1ke]

Although my understanding, from discussing it with people who were at the time working at the North American Forum on the Catechumenate, is that if she formally defects it’s not as simple as ‘come back, go to confession and all is forgiven’. The act of defection requires you to go through the same process as anyone else seeking to come into full communion.

Well, no, it’s not simple. But it is possible, which is my main point. Defecting, formally or otherwise, does not permanently bar one from the Catholic Church.

While there certainly is paperwork to do, I do not believe that such a person would go through the same process as a non-Catholic.

They remain a Catholic. If they’d completed all their Sacraments of Initiation, there is no instruction and no “redoing” of Sacraments.

They may have to go see the Bishop, do paperwork, have their records set straight, and even possibly make a profession of faith. But, I don’t think they’d go through the same process as a non-Catholic would.

I would guess the process and length of time needed to formally return would be up to the Bishop.

 

[Thomas63116]

None of us know this young women or this young man, so none of us are really in a position to judge whether this marriage is prudent. Many people have jumped in to express their opinion that a marriage between a practicing Catholic and a non-practicing Catholic who now consideres herself agnostic would be inadvisable under any circumstances.

Hamburgler, you seem to agree in that you stated that if you were a priest you would not marry them. If you feel that way, I would ask you to consider whether you are really the best person to be giving your friend advice on how to go about doing this, and whether she would want you involved if she knew you felt that way. But that is another matter.

What we have is a gap between how this young woman defines her own religion and how the Catholic Church defines her religion. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, she is a baptized Catholic, therefore she is Catholic. As far as she is concerned, she has not practiced this religion and is not sure she believes any of it. But she appears to respect her fiance and his beliefs enough that she would like their marriage to be recognized by his church (which may or may not also be “her” church depending how we look at it). She also seems to have enough integrity that she doesn’t want to go through with a sacrament (confirmation) just to make things easier, when it’s not really something she believes in.

Ironically, it is not the fact that she is agnostic that is the problem here, it is the fact that she is not confirmed. If she had been confirmed in grade school or high school, and later decided she didn’t really believe and stopped practicing, no one would know any better.

I think this is a case where we need to focus on the big picture. Ideally, what we all hope is that this young woman would rediscover her Catholic faith and desire to practice it. What options do they have, and what course of action is most likely to further that goal?

1. They could decide not to marry. Many of you think that is the best course of action, and you may be right. But it really isn’t a decision anyone can force on them.
2. She could seek the sacraments without really believing in them, simply to make the process of having their marriage recognized by the Church easier. I don’t think that would show much integrity and I wouldn’t advise anyone to appraoch the sacraments for that reason.
3. They could marry civilly, placing both of them in an objective state of serious sin. Clearly not advisable.
4. She could formally defect from the Catholic Church (perhaps join the Unitarians) and follow the prescriptions for mixed marriage. If the goal is to eventually bring her into full particiapation in the Church, pushing her out seems like a step in the wrong direction.
5. They could find a priest who will marry them despite the fact that she is not confirmed. Canon 1065 normally requires that a Catholic who has not yet received confirmation should receive it before being admitted to marriage. The requirement does not seem to be absolute, and unlike many of the other Canon Law requirements relating to marriage does not appear to require dispensation from the bishop.

For whatever reason, the first priest that she spoke with does not seem to be willing to consider option 5. Personally, I think it is the course of action that is most likely to achieve what should be the primary goal (her eventual return to the Church).

As I stated in my prior post, I think they are more likely to have success with this option if the practicing Catholic party takes the lead, perhaps by approaching his priest. That is what I would avise them to do.

 

[rick43235]

So they get married in the parish where at least one of them resides. This is geographically determined, not necessarily where they are registered.

As a member of the Marine Corps, wouldn’t he be a member of the Archdiocese for the Military Services? He could probably find a more “sympathetic” priest among the Navy chaplains he has contact with.

 

[Corki]

As a member of the Marine Corps, wouldn’t he be a member of the Archdiocese for the Military Services? He could probably find a more “sympathetic” priest among the Navy chaplains he has contact with.

Active duty military have some options. They are in the diocese of the military and in the diocese of their home of record. When I was engaged, my fiancee was active duty. His chaplain organized the pre-cana classes, etc. But we got married in my parents Church and so that pastor did all the official paperwork, had the banns published, etc.

Sympathy is great but unless he is getting married in a military chapel, there will be (or should be) a pastor at the Church where the wedding will be held that is going to want to check that everything is done correctly.

 

[IrishAm]

Active duty military have some options. They are in the diocese of the military and in the diocese of their home of record. When I was engaged, my fiancee was active duty. His chaplain organized the pre-cana classes, etc. But we got married in my parents Church and so that pastor did all the official paperwork, had the banns published, etc.

Sympathy is great but unless he is getting married in a military chapel, there will be (or should be) a pastor at the Church where the wedding will be held that is going to want to check that everything is done correctly.

There is also the option of contacting a parish located where the active duty military person is based. That was the scenario for my daughter and her (now) husband. Married in a local Catholic church and the reception on base. It was lovely . . .

 

[rick43235]

Sympathy is great but unless he is getting married in a military chapel, there will be (or should be) a pastor at the Church where the wedding will be held that is going to want to check that everything is done correctly.

When I mentioned the possibility of working with a military chaplain, I guess I was assuming that they would get married in a military chapel, therefore taking the hometown priest out of the equation; since the military archdiocese would be his “home,” and since she is (as a practical matter) non-Catholic.

 

[Julianna]

None of us know this young women or this young man, so none of us are really in a position to judge whether this marriage is prudent. Many people have jumped in to express their opinion that a marriage between a practicing Catholic and a non-practicing Catholic who now consideres herself agnostic would be inadvisable under any circumstances.

Hamburgler, you seem to agree in that you stated that if you were a priest you would not marry them. If you feel that way, I would ask you to consider whether you are really the best person to be giving your friend advice on how to go about doing this, and whether she would want you involved if she knew you felt that way. But that is another matter.

What we have is a gap between how this young woman defines her own religion and how the Catholic Church defines her religion. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, she is a baptized Catholic, therefore she is Catholic. As far as she is concerned, she has not practiced this religion and is not sure she believes any of it. But she appears to respect her fiance and his beliefs enough that she would like their marriage to be recognized by his church (which may or may not also be “her” church depending how we look at it). She also seems to have enough integrity that she doesn’t want to go through with a sacrament (confirmation) just to make things easier, when it’s not really something she believes in.

Ironically, it is not the fact that she is agnostic that is the problem here, it is the fact that she is not confirmed. If she had been confirmed in grade school or high school, and later decided she didn’t really believe and stopped practicing, no one would know any better.

I think this is a case where we need to focus on the big picture. Ideally, what we all hope is that this young woman would rediscover her Catholic faith and desire to practice it. What options do they have, and what course of action is most likely to further that goal?

1. They could decide not to marry. Many of you think that is the best course of action, and you may be right. But it really isn’t a decision anyone can force on them.
2. She could seek the sacraments without really believing in them, simply to make the process of having their marriage recognized by the Church easier. I don’t think that would show much integrity and I wouldn’t advise anyone to appraoch the sacraments for that reason.
3. They could marry civilly, placing both of them in an objective state of serious sin. Clearly not advisable.
4. She could formally defect from the Catholic Church (perhaps join the Unitarians) and follow the prescriptions for mixed marriage. If the goal is to eventually bring her into full particiapation in the Church, pushing her out seems like a step in the wrong direction.

5. They could find a priest who will marry them despite the fact that she is not confirmed. Canon 1065 normally requires that a Catholic who has not yet received confirmation should receive it before being admitted to marriage. The requirement does not seem to be absolute, and unlike many of the other Canon Law requirements relating to marriage does not appear to require dispensation from the bishop.
For whatever reason, the first priest that she spoke with does not seem to be willing to consider option 5. Personally, I think it is the course of action that is most likely to achieve what should be the primary goal (her eventual return to the Church).

As I stated in my prior post, I think they are more likely to have success with this option if the practicing Catholic party takes the lead, perhaps by approaching his priest. That is what I would avise them to do.

IMHO Option 5 is the way to go.

 

[Corki]

When I mentioned the possibility of working with a military chaplain, I guess I was assuming that they would get married in a military chapel, therefore taking the hometown priest out of the equation; since the military archdiocese would be his “home,” and since she is (as a practical matter) non-Catholic.

I am sure that’s possible. Either way, though, the priest will ask for the annotated baptismal certificates of both parties and see that the bride-to-be is baptised but not confirmed. The military chaplain is just as likely to raise the same issues the first priest did. I’ve known some chaplains that were real sticklers.

Many time military personnel register in the parishes of the nearby towns. That’s another option too.

I guess the point is, that if someone is going into marriage looking for a way to get around the rules, the priest is justified in raising concerns. Not necessarily to block but to make sure that all the problem areas (like Catholic marrying agnostic) are thoroughly counseled prior to the wedding.

 

[hamburglar]

Today I asked her where she was Baptized. She was Baptized in the Catholic Church.

 

[1ke]

Today I asked her where she was Baptized. She was Baptized in the Catholic Church.

Then she is a Catholic and canon law applies to her.

 

[LongingForLight]

A faithful person should not marry someone who openly objects to religion. Another Christian, sure… but someone who openly considers themselves an agnostic… you really think that is a healthy relationship based on faith?

Pardon the off-topicness of this post, but I think it is important to point out: Agnostics do not always object to faith or religion. An agnostic may simply not believe in God, but still support faith and religion for those who have it.

This is the type of agnostic my husband is. He attends Mass every Sunday with the family and receives a blessing from the priest during Communion. He drives the girls and I to a weekly Rosary prayer group and hangs out while we pray, then enjoys conversing with the other fathers afterward. He encourages me to pray when I am weak or hurting. He knows that I pray fervently for his conversion and supports me even in my requests for God to change his heart. However, he himself does not believe in God. Nor does he specifically disbelieve. He simply doesn’t know, and can’t bring himself to commit to something he doesn’t know.

Not saying that all marriages involving a non-Catholic or agnostic will have these features; merely saying that they can have them.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Pardon the off-topicness of this post, but I think it is important to point out: Agnostics do not always object to faith or religion. An agnostic may simply not believe in God, but still support faith and religion for those who have it.

This is the type of agnostic my husband is. He attends Mass every Sunday with the family and receives a blessing from the priest during Communion. He drives the girls and I to a weekly Rosary prayer group and hangs out while we pray, then enjoys conversing with the other fathers afterward. He encourages me to pray when I am weak or hurting. He knows that I pray fervently for his conversion and supports me even in my requests for God to change his heart. However, he himself does not believe in God. Nor does he specifically disbelieve. He simply doesn’t know, and can’t bring himself to commit to something he doesn’t know.

Not saying that all marriages involving a non-Catholic or agnostic will have these features; merely saying that they can have them.

I could have never imagined that something like this was possible. This is so beautiful, so uplifting! Your husband’s love for you is beyond belief, that he attends Mass with you as a family and actively supports your faith and the religious formation of your children. Reading the OP’s comments, I could only imagine one spouse going always alone to Mass and the other spouse working against his efforts or at least not helping him, when it comes to the children. How good to be proven wrong by your case! May God bless you with the day when your husband will receive the gift of faith and your whole family will partake together in the Eucharist!

 

[harrisunt]

Pardon the off-topicness of this post, but I think it is important to point out: Agnostics do not always object to faith or religion. An agnostic may simply not believe in God, but still support faith and religion for those who have it.

This is the type of agnostic my husband is. He attends Mass every Sunday with the family and receives a blessing from the priest during Communion. He drives the girls and I to a weekly Rosary prayer group and hangs out while we pray, then enjoys conversing with the other fathers afterward. He encourages me to pray when I am weak or hurting. He knows that I pray fervently for his conversion and supports me even in my requests for God to change his heart. However, he himself does not believe in God. Nor does he specifically disbelieve. He simply doesn’t know, and can’t bring himself to commit to something he doesn’t know.

Not saying that all marriages involving a non-Catholic or agnostic will have these features; merely saying that they can have them.

Thanks for the explanation but you’re preaching to the choir. I myself am a convert. I was an Atheist. But when I read the OP and see “Agnostic” with the quotations, to me that means that she doesn’t actually know what to call herself. If you don’t know how to define yourself you have no place getting married.

That being said LFL, that is a beautiful story that you told. I wish it was the rule instead of the exception.