Friends divorcing - what to do?

[kage_ar]

Back to the original post - perhaps your friends want you to watch the kids to keep them in a neutral place. These friends may know that you will not take sides, while family can be deeply divided during a time like this. If the kids go to someone on his side, the kids might hear mom badmouthed or vice versa.

I stick with what I said before, pray, love them and stay neutral. Don’t assume one of them has become a vile monster…

 

[Eliza10]

… Yes, I am basing this off of the many marriages that I know that ended in divorce or that are still intact but are miserable marriages. Everyone I know that has/had issues were a result of both parties, no one was truly a sole “victim”…

Then your experience in your circle has been different from mine. I have known some for whom the fault of the marriage difficulty was both, but I find they are fewer than the cases where the fault is one.

In one case, the wife decided she was gay. She probably never was suited for marriage, but I believe wanted to try for the sake of having children, and chose a husband very different from her. He did not possess the success-driven nature she does, and after her children were born she became very dissatisfied that he was not more success-driven like herself. She was the one more at fault that there was a divorce. But I question that she was even ever capable of keeping her vows.

… I do agree that there are marriages where one party is clearly the victim, but again, I do not believe they are the majority.

I have not made a study of available statistics, but I can say that in more of the divorces I have become aware of since my own divorce, I can see there clearly is one for whom the fault can be placed for the divorce. And usually its the man, being selfish, after the children come along.

But I can think of a couple of women with decent husbands, who they became disenchanted with, and then succumbed to the temptation (so much tauted in our society) of a romantic affair, and the new romantic lover became the object off their desire, rather than to find some way to work on their marriage and keep their family intact. I have to say in these two instances, the husbands were the innocent party. Having imperfections and ignorances does not make one culpable for a divorce.

I also once thought that it* usually* takes two. And since I lived my life to not be in any way causing or inviting a divorce, I was sure divorce would never happen to me. A part of me suspected that those who were divorced just didn’t try as hard as I did. I tried very hard.

But now I realize that likely the big reason I was married so long is there was something in it for my husband. We did not have children right off (his decision, as I understood, as a Protestant, that it was his jurisdiction to decide this), and I worked as a professional and brought home a terrific paycheck for him to be in charge of, and I worked like crazy at home when I was not at my job to do everything a stay-at-home wife would do. But once I stayed home with a child, the benefits thinned out for him. He was not interested in having a nice homelife. He didn’t have it growing up and was okay without it. He wanted freedom to come and go as he pleased and live his life how he pleased. We could live easily on his income, but he wan’t interested in sharing it, or any of himself.

I welcome that the divorce helped humble me in a way. You see, one of my first thoughts when the reality of divorce in my life loomed was repulsion that I would have that ugly word “divorce” attached to me the rest of my life.

But that I realized that that repulsion came from me thinking I was too good to have that word tagged on me. And that others who had that word attached to them were somehow not as good as me. And that through my own virtue I had avoided it and could avoid it. Now I learned that divorce could happen and does happen to those innocent of it.

I guess people don’t know that unless they have been there. Or they were like me - I had not gone outside myself to understand the reasons why one would divorce by listening to those who had. I think I had not because, like others, I wanted to stay away from that dirty divorce business.

Some people like that (like I was) will look at me when they hear I am divorced with the same reserve and inner judgment that I looked at others with back when I was married. Thats okay. Its just desserts and will remind me not to judge others.

http://www.goingpostalt-shirts.com/ItalianT-shirts/Big/ItalyMaria2.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

I’m sorry this is a horrible double standard. Women can get away with say all sorts of really mean things to there husbands but if a man says anything remotely similar its abuse…

I never said anything like that. No one here did either. Your response to the word “abuse” linked with “husband” is a common one though.

Liberanosamalo and I were talking about “verbally abusive relationships”, which cannot possibly be a real marriage - though, to those not seeing what goes on behind the closed doors, they may look exactly like marriages. Verbally Abusive relationships are defined in various publications. Here are two places on the web: drirene.com/theabuser.htm
verbalabuse.com/3.shtml

…Either its abuse for both or its not for both.

I agree with you! I am sure if you read one of these you will see that this is not just fighting or arguing, or using abusive words, or a man or a woman complaining about or bashing their spouse to friends.

Although men are generally, but not always, are the perpetrators in the abuse relationship, if you read a definition of the verbally abusive partner you will see that it is seriously disordered and wrong, whether it is the man or woman perpetrating the described behavior.

 

[gmarie21]

Then your experience in your circle has been different from mine. I have known some for whom the fault of the marriage difficulty was both, but I find they are fewer than the cases where the fault is one.

In one case, the wife decided she was gay. She probably never was suited for marriage, but I believe wanted to try for the sake of having children, and chose a husband very different from her. He did not possess the success-driven nature she does, and after her children were born she became very dissatisfied that he was not more success-driven like herself. She was the one more at fault that there was a divorce. But I question that she was even ever capable of keeping her vows.

I also once thought that it* usually* takes two. And since I lived my life to not be in any way causing or inviting a divorce, I was sure divorce would never happen to me. A part of me suspected that those who were divorced just didn’t try as hard as I did. I tried very hard.

But now I realize that likely the big reason I was married so long is there was something in it for my husband. We did not have children right off (his decision, as I understood, as a Protestant, that it was his jurisdiction to decide this), and I worked as a professional and brought home a terrific paycheck for him to be in charge of, and I worked like crazy at home when I was not at my job to do everything a stay-at-home wife would do. But once I stayed home with a child, the benefits thinned out for him. He was not interested in having a nice homelife. He didn’t have it growing up and was okay without it. He wanted freedom to come and go as he pleased and live his life how he pleased. We could live easily on his income, but he wan’t interested in sharing it, or any of himself.

I welcome that the divorce helped humble me in a way. You see, one of my first thoughts when the reality of divorce in my life loomed was repulsion that I would have that ugly word “divorce” attached to me the rest of my life.

I guess people don’t know that unless they have been there. Or they were like me - I had not gone outside myself to understand the reasons why one would divorce by listening to those who had. I think I had not because, like others, I wanted to stay away from that dirty divorce business.

Some people like that (like I was) will look at me when they hear I am divorced with the same reserve and inner judgment that I looked at others with back when I was married. Thats okay. Its just desserts and will remind me not to judge others.

http://www.goingpostalt-shirts.com/ItalianT-shirts/Big/ItalyMaria2.jpg

Please look at your own words, the man is selfish, the woman is disenchanted. While you’re trying to make the same point for both, the terms you use cause different reactions, selfishness is ugly, disenchanted is something one can be more sypathetic towards. The man that wanders is selfish, the woman who wanders is selfish or the man who wanders is disenchanted, the woman who wanders is disenchanted.

I don’t judge anyone who’s been divorced. However I don’t ignore reality. I am a child of divorce so I have recieved the “victim” end of my parent’s marriage (and their divorce was about as ideal as one could imagine, no fighting in or out of the courts, all the ex-families get along with one another and still spend time together, all the steps get along with the exs, my half and step siblings get along with the parents that aren’t theirs, etc.) As humans we naturally want to defend ourselves and not see the ugliness we posses, so we’re quick to point out others faults and blame them for actions in which they are not fully to blame. Believe me, as a never been married mother I know who got me into this situation and I do plan on appologizing to my dd when she’s old enough to understand. I have also appologized to everyone I have hurt by my situation b/c I DO (DID) recognize my sins for what they are (were) and how they hurt others.

 

[LJN21]

I never said anything like that. No one here did either. Your response to the word “abuse” linked with “husband” is a common one though.

Liberanosamalo and I were talking about “verbally abusive relationships”, which cannot possibly be a real marriage - though, to those not seeing what goes on behind the closed doors, they may look exactly like marriages. Verbally Abusive relationships are defined in various publications. Here are two places on the web: drirene.com/theabuser.htm
verbalabuse.com/3.shtml

No we don’t see what goes on behind closed doors, we can however see what happens after. My husband and I have been in a position of having to point out to a man what his wife was doing to him. He was justifying her actions because he thought he was a bad husband. Because he was male there is no way any court of law would charge her with abuse. He had to fight tooth and nail to get custody of his daughter.

My father is a police officer. He worked as a patrol officer for 15 years followed by 5+ years as a domestic violence detective. You would probably be shocked at the number of cases where the woman physical abuses the man, that’s the few that actually get the policy involved.

 

[Eliza10]

Please look at your own words, the man is selfish, the woman is disenchanted. While you’re trying to make the same point for both, the terms you use cause different reactions, selfishness is ugly, disenchanted is something one can be more sypathetic towards. The man that wanders is selfish, the woman who wanders is selfish or the man who wanders is disenchanted, the woman who wanders is disenchanted…

I see what you are saying about my use of words. You have a point.

I think in the instance I gave, my words were softened because the woman I was speaking of is in fact an old friend dear to my heart, and always will be even though she has separated herself from me, having allegiance to a completely different lifestyle and seeing mine as narrow. But certainly, her choice to leave her husband who was innocently being the same person she married was nothing but selfish. So also were the women who engaged in romantic liasons. It is also just selfish.

The abusive men also were selfish. But abusive it seems to me is a deeper sin.

I know of two women and one man whose marraiges have ended because of their spouse’s adultery only - no verbal or emotional abuse involved by either party. The offended party is deeply hurt, but a salve is that the offender is sorry and feels remorse that he/she cheated.

On the other hand, Abusers do not admit guilt; they place the responsibility of their actions on their victims. So you see why I say it is a worse sin.

… I am a child of divorce so I have recieved the “victim” end of my parent’s marriage (and their divorce was about as ideal as one could imagine, no fighting in or out of the courts, all the ex-families get along with one another and still spend time together, all the steps get along with the exs, my half and step siblings get along with the parents that aren’t theirs, etc.).

Wow, thats encouraging.

As humans we naturally want to defend ourselves and not see the ugliness we posses, so we’re quick to point out others faults and blame them for actions in which they are not fully to blame. .

Yes. And, it seems when one says they are not to blame for their divorce they must be doing this. But I am saying it is not always so. That frequently, the fault of divorce does lie with one. The example of Catherine of Aragon I gave you is one clear example. If you learn of it you will see how this can repeat itself in many senarios. It takes only *one *selfish spouse to destroy a marraige, and the other spouse can do nothing about it.

Believe me, as a never been married mother I know who got me into this situation and I do plan on appologizing to my dd when she’s old enough to understand. I have also appologized to everyone I have hurt by my situation b/c I DO (DID) recognize my sins for what they are (were) and how they hurt others.

That is great. It is just. It is also my continual endeavor to recognize my sins. But I do know that the fault of my divorce does not at all rest with me. I am innocent of divorce. I do know that many others are also innocent victims of their divorce. (That does not mean they were faultless while being married!)

…>>>>>>>http://www.goingpostalt-shirts.com/ItalianT-shirts/Big/ItalyMaria2.jpg

 

[Eliza10]

Please look at your own words, the man is selfish, the woman is disenchanted. While you’re trying to make the same point for both, the terms you use cause different reactions, selfishness is ugly, disenchanted is something one can be more sypathetic towards. The man that wanders is selfish, the woman who wanders is selfish or the man who wanders is disenchanted, the woman who wanders is disenchanted…

I see what you are saying about my use of words. You have a point.

I think in the instance I gave, my words were softened because the woman I was speaking of is in fact an old friend dear to my heart, and always will be even though she has separated herself from me, having allegiance to a completely different lifestyle and seeing mine as narrow. But certainly, her choice to leave her husband who was innocently being the same person she married was nothing but selfish. So also were the women who engaged in romantic liasons. It is also just selfish.

The abusive men also were selfish. But abusive it seems to me is a deeper sin. I know of two women and one man whose marraiges have ended because of their spouse’s adultery only - no verbal or emotuional abuse involved by either party. The offended party is deeply hurt, but a salve is that the offender is sorry and feels remorse that he/she cheated. Abusers do not admit guilt, they place the responsibility of their actions on their victims. So you see why I say it is a worse sin.

… I am a child of divorce so I have recieved the “victim” end of my parent’s marriage (and their divorce was about as ideal as one could imagine, no fighting in or out of the courts, all the ex-families get along with one another and still spend time together, all the steps get along with the exs, my half and step siblings get along with the parents that aren’t theirs, etc.).

Wow, thats encouraging.

As humans we naturally want to defend ourselves and not see the ugliness we posses, so we’re quick to point out others faults and blame them for actions in which they are not fully to blame. .

Yes. And, it seems when one says they are not to blame for their divorce they must be doing this. But I am saying it is not always so. That frequently, the fault of divorce does lie with one. The example of Catherine of Aragon I gave you is one clear example. If you learn of it you will see how this can repeat itself in many senarios. It takes only *one *selfish spouse to destroy a marraige, and the other spouse can do nothing about it.

Believe me, as a never been married mother I know who got me into this situation and I do plan on appologizing to my dd when she’s old enough to understand. I have also appologized to everyone I have hurt by my situation b/c I DO (DID) recognize my sins for what they are (were) and how they hurt others.

That is great. It is just. It is also my continual endeavor to recognize my sins. But I do know that the fault of my divorce does not at all rest with me. I am innocent of divorce. I do know that many others are also innocent victims of their divorce. (That does not mean they were faultless while being married!)

…>>>>>>>http://www.goingpostalt-shirts.com/ItalianT-shirts/Big/ItalyMaria2.jpg

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Very interesting. I was once one who thought I was divorce proof also. This was a profoundly humiliating experience for me. I was literally the LAST person my friends thought would ever divorce because I was a staunch Cathlolic all my life. No one is divorce proof. Not in this fallen world.

And if I could have maintained half the courtesy and friendship as gmarie’s family, I’d still be married to the man. I did NOT believe in divorce. But the laws of the country favor the person who wants out.

As for the verbal abuse sites… I wish I had seen those years ago. There is a lot of passive aggression that goes in this. Example: I was very pregnant. Ready to deliver. Laundry basket needs to be carried up 13 stairs. I ask H to do it. He says okay. Six hours later, after asking kindly a few times, and he walks by it several times to go up and downstairs, the small kids are taking clothes out and dragging them across the floor. I have a choice. Tell him what I think of him (making me the verbal abuser?) ask him again (and get ignored again, and keep the problem going?) or carry the basket up myself. Quietly. I get to the top of the stairs. H comes up. Starts yelling at me that he was going to carry it up. And I just set him up to look bad so I could tell my family how he made me carry the basket upstairs. Then he calls me a B---- and throws all the clothes and the basket down the stairs. So I have to refold it and carry it up again.

In that typical scenario, who is at fault? Nothing you do will be the right thing. (And no, I wouldn’t have told the family I had to carry the basket upstairs, but you can bet that a few years later they finally heard the whole truth about his abuse and heard about him throwing it down the stairs.)

Point being, no one on the outside knows that things like this go on in a marriage. Some personalities are fine and basically cheery until the children come along and then something is required of them (like sacrifice) to care for other people. They are not the center of their own universe anymore. And then they change and turn ugly. And often, this is the man in the relationship. The woman, being the mother, is making sacrifices for the child. Often the coming of children sends the relationship downhill.

The man is supposed to be the head of the family. If he abdicates that responsibility of taking care of his family’s emotional and spiritual welfare, leading them to God in virtue, then the family goes downhill. If he abuses his power and demands servility and makes the family cower in fear, it goes downhill. If he is selfish and ignores everyone else’s needs, the family goes downhill.

Men can’t have it both ways. If they want the title of head of the household, they must ensure that it isn’t a dysfunctional household. They must admit that the bass sets the tone, as my H told me over and over. And when that tone is off-key, he never admitted it was the fault of the bass player.