Full consent of the will

[twoangels]

No that’s not true. Its doesn’t take that much indifference to make a mortal sin.
Anyway, we can discuss that on another thread if you want

That’s from another post involving fornication and a small debate over mortal sin. I specified to the person that full consent of the will means full consent and that there is also partial consent of the will. It is not either/or. I gave an extreme example of when something is a mortal sin (utter indifference) and this is the response I got. The person recommended I start a new post to discuss this, so here I am.

Here’s my opinion. The Church specifies that a mortal sin requires full knowledge that what you are doing is sinful and full consent of the will. In other words a mortal sin is a grave offense that is deliberately done. You cannot accidently commit a mortal sin.

That said, St. Paul speaks about how the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit can be in conflict with each other. He speaks of doing things he does not want to do but yet doing them anyway. This is a lifelong struggle we have with ourselves.

I agree with the OP that its very easy for Catholics to get it stuck in their mind that unless they are raped, if they have sex before marriage, they are immediately doomed to Hell. In there minds there is no such thing as struggling with your will to the very last moment and the will of the flesh beating over the will of the spirit. (unless its masturbation because the Catechism actually addresses that issue directly).

The thing is this. Our concern should not be primarily weather or not we go to Hell or not. If that is the only reason we’re going to confession or being obedient, than our concern for avoiding sin is in fact motivated by selfishness. Somehow your desire for God’s grace is tainted by sin, thus making it imperfect contrition but still acceptable for confession. Yet you still have to live with the oxymoron: your desire to go to confession is tainted by sin. God doesn’t want to merely scare us into submission. Sure, fear of Hell is a starting point, but it is not what is needed to become a saint. What is needed is sincere love for God. And as such, it should not matter whether the sin is mortal or not. If you look at a behavior and go “Oh, you mean its not always a mortal sin. Then I’ll go do it anyway.” well then of course that person is committing a mortal sin. That person does not truly care enough about pleasing God or avoiding grave matters. That person is just trying to avoid Hell while still pleasing themselves and trying to get by with whatever they can. But a person who says “Forget about whether its mortal or venial. Just knowing there is a difference is enough. My concern should be whether or not I commit a grave sin. If I commit a grave sin, I should go to confession immediately and refrain from communion (unless my confessor advises me otherwise) until I do. I needn’t worry about getting into a car accident on the way to Church for confession, or fulfilling family and work obligations that involve driving on the freeway and risking my life because I’m driving 70 miles an hour while its snowing not on the way to confession and as fate would have it a semi hits me and I go to Hell. I don’t need to live is constant anxiety, because this is not about Hell. This is about loving God and wanting to please God. As such, I should go to confession to please God, not to get my butt out of a jam.”

Now a person who is at that point of actually NOT CARING whether their particular sin is mortal, but only sees “Oh grave offense. I should go to confession tomorrow rather than waiting for my regularly scheduled confession of the first Saturday of the month.” is actually far more spiritually progressed than a person who is only motivated to go to confession because “I’m going to go to Hell. Oh no!!” And even with that progression, that person may still struggle with the temptation to fornicate and may fornicate after a long battle with themselves and immediately be ashamed of himself and go straight online (just moments later) to find local confession times to get right with God ASAP. You’re telling me that’s mortal sin if the person resisted prior to fornicating and immediately went online to find confession times afterward?

Of course there is the sin of presumption, but again the sin of presumption is primarily motivated by only caring about “I don’t want to go to Hell, but I want to get by with what I can.”

Anyway, that’s my two cents.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

For a sin to be mortal we need
1 grave matter
2. full knowledge
3. deliberate consent.

I’ll give an example that won’t involve sex, but a more common sin possibly, missing Mass on Sunday or Holy Day.

This actually happens to us. (DH and I)

1. We know it is a sin of grave matter to miss Mass for a non serious reason.
2. the deliberate consent part. Somtimes our in-laws want to do things on Sunday that conflict with Mass time. They become tempting, “it’s a beautiful day, come out.” Sometimes they come over and it’s Mass time, FIL does not want to go. We want to go to Mass. If we submit to the peer pressure and not go to Mass, we commit a sin. Even though we don’t have “full intent of the will” because we want to go to Mass, (FIL has such a strong personality that he’s preventing us from going.) we do give deliberated consent.

As for being “damned”

However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

We should not presume that God would be more merciful than just. When we miss Mass, we have sinned against Him, and do deserve His justice. He might have complete Mercy, but it isn’t up to us to assume, “God is Merciful, he will see the mitigating factors.”

Deliberate consent is what is necessary.

 

[Marybeloved]

For a sin to be mortal we need
1 grave matter
2. full knowledge
3. deliberate consent.

I’ll give an example that won’t involve sex, but a more common sin possibly, missing Mass on Sunday or Holy Day.

This actually happens to us. (DH and I)

1. We know it is a sin of grave matter to miss Mass for a non serious reason.
2. the deliberate consent part. Somtimes our in-laws want to do things on Sunday that conflict with Mass time. They become tempting, “it’s a beautiful day, come out.” Sometimes they come over and it’s Mass time, FIL does not want to go. We want to go to Mass. If we submit to the peer pressure and not go to Mass, we commit a sin. Even though we don’t have “full intent of the will” because we want to go to Mass, (FIL has such a strong personality that he’s preventing us from going.) we do give deliberated consent.

As for being “damned”

We should not presume that God would be more merciful than just. When we miss Mass, we have sinned against Him, and do deserve His justice. He might have complete Mercy, but it isn’t up to us to assume, “God is Merciful, he will see the mitigating factors.”

Deliberate consent is what is necessary.

I’m very tired and feel sick. I didn’t attend mass in the morning because of an emergency at home with my sick dad- trying to get the doctor home etc- I intended to go for the evening mass as I normally do when I don’t attend Morning Sunday mass for some reason. I arranged for a cousin to drive me. When I went to my room to change my clothes to go, I felt sick, like dizzy/nauseous and did not change. I sat back, thinking that if I went I would feel horrible during and after mass on the way home. I didn’t have lunch, so I asked for something to eat. I kept feeling like I should push myself but I felt bad/ill and though I could definitely push myself, it would be very unpleasant. I have not gone.

Here’s my problem: I did not “feel” like going today, either. So I’m confused about consent- How do I know when I’ve consented when on top of feeling ill, I also don’t feel like going? How do I know that it’s sufficient to relieve the Sunday obligation or merely an excuse?

Also: How seriously ill counts as sufficient grounds to relieve Sunday obligation? I definitely am not so ill that I require hospitalization, but I was in a condition that I saw that going at that time, to mass or anywhere, basically moving about, would be very unpleasant for me.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m very tired and feel sick. I didn’t attend mass in the morning because of an emergency at home with my sick dad- trying to get the doctor home etc- I intended to go for the evening mass as I normally do when I don’t attend Morning Sunday mass for some reason. I arranged for a cousin to drive me. When I went to my room to change my clothes to go, I felt sick, like dizzy/nauseous and did not change. I sat back, thinking that if I went I would feel horrible during and after mass on the way home. I didn’t have lunch, so I asked for something to eat. I kept feeling like I should push myself but I felt bad/ill and though I could definitely push myself, it would be very unpleasant. I have not gone.

Here’s my problem: I did not “feel” like going today, either. So I’m confused about consent- How do I know when I’ve consented when on top of feeling ill, I also don’t feel like going? How do I know that it’s sufficient to relieve the Sunday obligation or merely an excuse?

Also: How seriously ill counts as sufficient grounds to relieve Sunday obligation? I definitely am not so ill that I require hospitalization, but I was in a condition that I saw that going at that time, to mass or anywhere, basically moving about, would be very unpleasant for me.

I’m sorry, I did not mean to confuse you.

My example referred specifically to me and DH, when we are tempted to not go to Mass because it is a nice day and going to do something else is tempting.

You seem to have had legitamte reason to miss, caring for a sick parent, and being ill yourself.

That is clearly different than having in-laws say don’t go, let’s hang out some more.

 

[twoangels]

The principal is full consent of the will. The word full indicates to me that there are various quantities of consent. Its not just consent of the will versus lack of consent. Its full consent of the will versus partial consent of the will as well as no consent of the will.

I’d say the temptation to not go to Mass is pretty weak. Its not like sexual temptation. Its not as if a person ever could be having a sexual dream at night (totally no consent as they’re unconcious and have no ability to control it), but as they gradually wake up, their will power gradually strengthens. Suddenly there is a blurry line between Harboring sexual thoughts and fighting with sexual thoughts while you have some will power but only partial will power. Or for instance, finding yourself in sexual temptation while its time to go to bed and finding the only way to resist the sexual temptation is to distract yourself by staying awake while watching a totally innocent movie that takes your mind off sexual things. Do you choose lack of sleep? But yet, every time I have ever found myself in such a circumstance, I have found myself in a situation where it is an actual choice. Do I torture myself to avoid sin or do I actively choose to engage in a sinful action? Because temptation isn’t the same as doing. I have to decide to actually do it. And as such there is a consent of will.

Do we really believe that avoiding mortal sin is like walking along the edge of a narrow path by a steep cliff? One false step and we’ll completely reject God and his grace? Certainly there is a narrow road, but that narrow road is about avoiding ALL sin, not just mortal! Its not like venial sins are the ok sins. Now there is doing a grave offense unwillingly: someone slips a date rape drug in your drink. But then there is engaging in an internal battle of the will, making a good fight and giving in eventually to temptation for a brief moment and then the desire to repent right away and the torment of “Is my repentence too soon? If I go to confession now, didn’t it mean I was guilty of presumptions of God’s mercy? Or is the difference between presumption and partial consent of the will a very fine line? Can it be possible that a person can commit a grave offense after a large fight, and the fact that they immediately go to confession afterward be evidence that they have actually not rejected God entirely with their will? Am I actually never repenting at all if I keep committing grave offenses? A person goes to confession bi-weekly, confesses the sins regularly. Is every confession invalid? Is the person living on a teeter totter of totally rejecting God and repenting?”

I think we like to think we’re on the teeter totter when we’re not. Grave offenses with partial consent of the will are venial sins. Grave offenses with no consent of the will are not sins.

The Church has no defininitive answer here. There is no proof texting this. She has her teaching on mortal sin, but ultimately this is actually something to ponder and debate without worrying about whether or not you’re rejecting the Catholic faith or being a Cafeteria Catholic.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

But, a mortal sin needs deliberate consent. Full knowledge.

I’m not familiar with the wording “Full consent of the will”

It isn’t in the Catechism in describing Mortal Sin.

The Catechism also says this:

The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders

God knows what our struggles are.

But at the same time we can’t take that for granted and say, "it’s grave matter, I know it’s grave matter, I consented…(but not fully). That’s why we have confession.

I don’t think comitting mortal sin is inevitable as if one is walking on a narrow road and slips up

But, as one who did live in a state of mortal sin for circa 20 years, it isn’t *so *difficult to do.

 

[twoangels]

But, a mortal sin needs deliberate consent. Full knowledge.

I’m not familiar with the wording “Full consent of the will”

Its the classical wording from the Baltimore Catechism. I was confirmed just as the New Catechism was coming out, so it got drilled in my head with the old wording.

That said the English Translation of the New Catechism says “complete consent.”

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

I do find it strange that it says deliberate consent as deliberate would include both the knowledge and the consent. Its sort of reduntant to say “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

But at the same time we can’t take that for granted and say, "it’s grave matter, I know it’s grave matter, I consented…(but not fully). That’s why we have confession.

Why are you implying that this is about wanting to take it for granted? It doesn’t matter if its a mortal or venial sin. If we’re just worried about staying out of Hell, our faith is luke-warm. We should be trying to become as HOLY as we can. Confession is necessary for forgiveness of mortal sins, but not for venial sins, yet we should go to confession regularly even if we only have venial sins to confess for the grace that the sacrament gives us and the strength that grace gives us in overcoming our sinful habits and growing in virtue.

My point is that a person can ge growing in holiness yet still committing grave offenses with partial consent of the will. As a woman who committed grave sins on a weekly basis while going to confession weekly and praying a daily rosary and saw through the grace of the sacrament and prayers the sins reduce in frequency till they eventually were committed so rarely I could never remember when the last time it had been since I’d had to confess that sin, I’d say my behavior was evidence that I was not turning away completely from God and rejecting Him. It was an inner battle within my will. My will was divided. The devision in my will was expressed by the fact that there was no delay in my seeking the sacrament nor ceasing from taking efforts to seek as much grace and self control as I could develop to overcome the sin. But still the fact is that in each and every one of those particular sins, I can still see a free choice. I mean, sin is choice. Its not something that happens to you against your will.

 

[thistle]

That’s from another post involving fornication and a small debate over mortal sin. I specified to the person that full consent of the will means full consent and that there is also partial consent of the will. It is not either/or. I gave an extreme example of when something is a mortal sin (utter indifference) and this is the response I got. The person recommended I start a new post to discuss this, so here I am.

Here’s my opinion. The Church specifies that a mortal sin requires full knowledge that what you are doing is sinful and full consent of the will. In other words a mortal sin is a grave offense that is deliberately done. You cannot accidently commit a mortal sin.

That said, St. Paul speaks about how the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit can be in conflict with each other. He speaks of doing things he does not want to do but yet doing them anyway. This is a lifelong struggle we have with ourselves.

I agree with the OP that its very easy for Catholics to get it stuck in their mind that unless they are raped, if they have sex before marriage, they are immediately doomed to Hell. In there minds there is no such thing as struggling with your will to the very last moment and the will of the flesh beating over the will of the spirit. (unless its masturbation because the Catechism actually addresses that issue directly).

The thing is this. Our concern should not be primarily weather or not we go to Hell or not. If that is the only reason we’re going to confession or being obedient, than our concern for avoiding sin is in fact motivated by selfishness. Somehow your desire for God’s grace is tainted by sin, thus making it imperfect contrition but still acceptable for confession. Yet you still have to live with the oxymoron: your desire to go to confession is tainted by sin. God doesn’t want to merely scare us into submission. Sure, fear of Hell is a starting point, but it is not what is needed to become a saint. What is needed is sincere love for God. And as such, it should not matter whether the sin is mortal or not. If you look at a behavior and go “Oh, you mean its not always a mortal sin. Then I’ll go do it anyway.” well then of course that person is committing a mortal sin. That person does not truly care enough about pleasing God or avoiding grave matters. That person is just trying to avoid Hell while still pleasing themselves and trying to get by with whatever they can. But a person who says “Forget about whether its mortal or venial. Just knowing there is a difference is enough. My concern should be whether or not I commit a grave sin. If I commit a grave sin, I should go to confession immediately and refrain from communion (unless my confessor advises me otherwise) until I do. I needn’t worry about getting into a car accident on the way to Church for confession, or fulfilling family and work obligations that involve driving on the freeway and risking my life because I’m driving 70 miles an hour while its snowing not on the way to confession and as fate would have it a semi hits me and I go to Hell. I don’t need to live is constant anxiety, because this is not about Hell. This is about loving God and wanting to please God. As such, I should go to confession to please God, not to get my butt out of a jam.”

Now a person who is at that point of actually NOT CARING whether their particular sin is mortal, but only sees “Oh grave offense. I should go to confession tomorrow rather than waiting for my regularly scheduled confession of the first Saturday of the month.” is actually far more spiritually progressed than a person who is only motivated to go to confession because “I’m going to go to Hell. Oh no!!” And even with that progression, that person may still struggle with the temptation to fornicate and may fornicate after a long battle with themselves and immediately be ashamed of himself and go straight online (just moments later) to find local confession times to get right with God ASAP. You’re telling me that’s mortal sin if the person resisted prior to fornicating and immediately went online to find confession times afterward?

Of course there is the sin of presumption, but again the sin of presumption is primarily motivated by only caring about “I don’t want to go to Hell, but I want to get by with what I can.”

Anyway, that’s my two cents.

There is nothing complicated about FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL. It simply means you deliberately go ahead and commit a sin knowing it is a sin of grave matter.
A mortal sin cannot be committed by accident.

 

[twoangels]

There is nothing complicated about FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL. It simply means you deliberately go ahead and commit a sin knowing it is a sin of grave matter.
A mortal sin cannot be committed by accident.

The question is if there is such a thing as partial consent of the will? Partial consent of the will is not an accident, but its not full consent of the will either. Why even bother with the terms “full” and “complete” if it is only humanly possible either to consent or for something to happen by accident?

 

[thistle]

The question is if there is such a thing as partial consent of the will? Partial consent of the will is not an accident, but its not full consent of the will either. Why even bother with the terms “full” and “complete” if it is only humanly possible either to consent or for something to happen by accident?

It is not complicated. If you know a sin is of grave matter and you commit it anyway (without being coerced or under some reduced mental capacity for whatever reason) then you commit a mortal sin.
No such thing as partial consent in this case.