Fundie Claiming that Jeremiah 10:1-5 prohibits Christmas Tree! Need Help!

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Isidore_AK

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Hi all.

My Wife has a Charismatic/Fundie friend who doesn’t believe in Christmas trees…because (she says) that Jeremiah 10:2-5 is against it. She also charges that it is a Pagan tradition. She’s been giving my wife a hard time about it, and I wanted to write up a quick response to her…

I wanted to double check my answer for big, glaringly obvious, loopholes with everyone here before I e-mailed her my response…

*Jer 10:1-5 (NIV)
  1. Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel.
    This is what the lord says:
  2. "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky,
    though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the Customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of a forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel (axe in some translations).
  1. They adorn it with silver & gold;
    they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
  2. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carries for they cannot walk.
    Do not fear the; they can do no harm, nor can they do any good."*
Obviously this passage is speaking of worshiping man made idols hewn from trees, and it should be pretty self explanatory. :rolleyes:

She also acuses the Christmas tree of being a ‘Pagan’ invention. There are some similarities between our tree and the Scandinavian Yule trees, and the roman custom of bringing evergreens into the home during winter. But from what I have been able to find, a true Christmas tree really didn’t appear until around 1100 AD, long after Europe was thoroughly Christianized.

Anyone have anything to add?

Thanx!
 
Does she wear a wedding ring? Those originated in Pagan Egypt.
 
By that logic she should’nt have chairs in her house.🙂

NameBright - Coming Soon do we have a decorated Christmas Tree? In the 7th century a monk from Crediton, Devonshire, went to Germany to teach the Word of God. He did many good works there, and spent much time in Thuringia, an area which was to become the cradle of the Christmas Decoration Industry.

Legend has it that he used the triangular shape of the Fir Tree to describe the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The converted people began to revere the Fir tree as God’s Tree, as they had previously revered the Oak. By the 12th century it was being hung, upside-down, from ceilings at Christmastime in Central Europe, as a symbol of Christianity.

The first decorated tree was at Riga in Latvia, in 1510. In the early 16th century, Martin Luther is said to have decorated a small Christmas Tree with candles, to show his children how the stars twinkled through the dark night.

Actually they “Worshipped” the tree Called the oak of thor. But the held reverence for what the fir tree represented.

Yeah, yeah but how do you explain that to someone who won’t see the differencr between the two.😉
 
Ask her this: Suppose we were to have a Christmas shrub (a bush - pick any sort of bush you like) instead. Would that be OK?

Sometimes it pays to get people to actually THINK about what they’re saying.
 
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Isidore_AK:
Hi all.

My Wife has a Charismatic/Fundie friend who doesn’t believe in Christmas trees…because (she says) that Jeremiah 10:2-5 is against it. She also charges that it is a Pagan tradition. She’s been giving my wife a hard time about it, and I wanted to write up a quick response to her…

I wanted to double check my answer for big, glaringly obvious, loopholes with everyone here before I e-mailed her my response…

Jer 10:1-5 (NIV)
1. Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel.
This is what the lord says:

2. "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.

3 For the Customs of the peoples are worthless;
*they cut a tree out of a forest, *
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel (axe in some translations).

4. They adorn it with silver & gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.

5. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carries for they cannot walk.
Do not fear the; they can do no harm, nor can they do any good."

Obviously this passage is speaking of worshiping man made idols hewn from trees, and it should be pretty self explanatory. :rolleyes:

She also acuses the Christmas tree of being a ‘Pagan’ invention. There are some similarities between our tree and the Scandinavian Yule trees, and the roman custom of bringing evergreens into the home during winter. But from what I have been able to find, a true Christmas tree really didn’t appear until around 1100 AD, long after Europe was thoroughly Christianized.

Anyone have anything to add?

Thanx!
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Who in the modern world worships trees?
These are the same geniuses who think we catholics worship statues!
The Christian Cross is pagan but we think of Jesus and his sacrifice when we see it. We catholics have christianized pagan things for nearly 2000 years and made it Christ own which it was to begin with anyway. We Christianized the Pagan Roman Calender we Christianized the WInter Solstice to Christmas and Christianzed Easter. And so forth. Fundies do this in a way they
have a Harvest Festival at many of their churches instead of Holloween and they have Christain Rock acts, Christain Rap acts they attempt to Christianize the culture they are given. And that is a very Christian thing to do that goes way back to us catholics we are to go into the world and be a light to it and change the culture not adapt to culture but make culture adapt to us. The early catholics understood this.
There are some extreme fundies like the JW’s and Babptsit yes Babptist not Baptist and 7th day adventist who are so out their they make no attempt to engage in the culture we live in and no reference to Harvest Festival or Christian Rock will be meaningful.
Your dealing with an almost cult like behaviour of seperating one from the world. The Bible says we should be light on a hill not hiding under the hill with our flashlights.
 
The simple act of cutting down a tree, working it with tools and covering it with gold is not condemned in Jer 10:1-5 but the making of idols to be worshipped as gods. In Exodus 25:13, the LORD said to Moses, “You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold.”
 
Thanks Todd.
But its drive me crazy we have to look for a bible verse for every life situation for the protestant even the Christmas tree.
Another example of sola scritpura craziness!
Sometimes I think should be required to read a book in logic and another in philosophy before one even picks up a Bible.
Gee a little logic would clue you in that a decorated piece of wood is not idolatry but rather the worship of that object.
You could take it father than that and not build wooden homes with these type of verses. This is pure insanity.
Like I said have you seen anyone worshipping their Christmass tree?
 
If I were in the same situation, I wouln’t defend my use of the Chritmas tree. It’s apparent that the friend is weak in this regard, and we wouldn’t want to contribute to the friend’s fall.

See 1 Corinthians Chapter 8 (It’s a short chapter).
 
You go right on ahead and worship Jesus, God’s precious gift to the world, and don’t let her petty annoyances bother you. She has the right to be wrong in this country. If she tells you tat she is just trying to “save your soul from paganism”, tell her that you have faith in the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ to do just that. Then ask her to recite the Lord’s prayer with you. You could try to tell her that her passages from Jeremiah are taken out of context, but you’ll probably have more luck convincing your Christimas tree not to shed its needles. Fundamentalists can be some of the most obtuse people I know. Just witness to her with love, patience, and God-forbid, humor.
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Isidore_AK:
Hi all.

My Wife has a Charismatic/Fundie friend who doesn’t believe in Christmas trees…because (she says) that Jeremiah 10:2-5 is against it. She also charges that it is a Pagan tradition. She’s been giving my wife a hard time about it, and I wanted to write up a quick response to her…

Anyone have anything to add?

Thanx!
Click to expand...
 
I’d tell her that if she wants to come over next thursday you will be sacrificing a young bull to the tree.
 
This is another example of the silliness that results from each individual being his own pope. Fundamentalists are notorious for taking Scripture verses out of textual and cultural context. They are generally ignorant of history, at least that prior to A.D. 1517. They are often not susceptible to rational argument based on any source other than Scripture.
 
Todd Easton:
The simple act of cutting down a tree, working it with tools and covering it with gold is not condemned in Jer 10:1-5 but the making of idols to be worshipped as gods. In Exodus 25:13, the LORD said to Moses, “You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold.”
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Exactly. I believed they were referred to as Asherah poles, after the goddess whose worship the poles were used in.
 
Your dealing with an almost cult like behaviour of seperating one from the world. The Bible says we should be light on a hill not hiding under the hill with our flashlights.
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The Bible clearly says we are to be in the world not part of it as well as being a light.
1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Matthew 5:14-16 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John 17:11-19 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
 
At least this person you are witnessing to is perhaps willing to at least listen or read. My dear neighbor and friend, during a phone conversation, will listen to me when I appeal to logic, (as in explaining how praying to saints for intercession is not necromancy), then just say, ‘Well, it IS divination and necromancy." And then keep telling me stuff (you know, same-ol’ same-ol’, church is the whore of Babylon, the pope spritually fornicates with world leaders - that was a new one on me) and will just not have any kind of argument. Hey, I know what the Church teaches, and anyone can find out by reading the Catechism …

Suggestions? :confused:
Of course I will pray for her and for the Holy Spirit to work on this.

She claims to KNOW the Bible, but didn’t have an answer when I asked her where we got the colleciton of writings we call the Bible. She is in some kind of group that is Christian, believes that they have Christ present in their communion and she is rather given to emotionalism. but perhaps I piqued something today and maybe we can even have real discussion in future. I did keep my voice low key and calm and even. I’m going to try to find out more about whose writings she gets this stuff from. Their group is called simply Streamwood; they are not a Church, per se.

But, it is difficult to witness to someone when our Church is going through this scandalous stuff. I’m reading Good Bye Good Men by Michael Rose, and is it really tough to take. I did challenge my friend with ‘and do you know that all the people in your church are not in serious sin?’ Well, no real answer to that either. They have a sort of confession anyway.

It’s funny that, having been raised Catholic, I never heard of any of that idol worship stuff! :rolleyes:

God bless!
 
Catholic Culture (formerly “Petersnet” has an article on the “Jesse Tree”

The Jesse Tree

Also: do a Google search on “jesse tree” - you’ll be surprised!
 
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Maccabees:
Sometimes I think should be required to read a book in logic and another in philosophy before one even picks up a Bible.
that is exactly why in the past Catholics were not encouraged to pick up the bible and begin reading and interpreting at random, on their own, without the guidance of the church. that is why we don’t give young children the whole bible as a CCD text. worthy, beneficial, ecclesial reading of the bible requires education in logic, philosophy, history, Catholic doctrine, language, in short a good liberal education (which has nearly vanished from the face of the earth). that is why the Word of God is proclaimed to us over a 3 year cycle, with a homily to help us understand and apply it with the mind of the Church Jesus founded to do so.
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There is a difference between customs and beliefs. It is perfectly ok for an region in the world to retain their custom. Even if those customs revolve around previous religious beliefs.

Customs are based on what is available in that locale. Types of trees, livestock, and harvests. Pagans and Christians are the SAME people, in respect to regional flavor. It just happens that those people have been converted to a different religion over time. They still use the same customs to celebrate.

A people can change governments or religions, but don’t mess around with the customs.
 
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