Gaming the Sacramental System

[Truthstalker]

I just want to make the comment that I find the idea of gaming the system repugnant, as if God were stupid and mechanical and someone could do this only if they totally miss What It Is All About.

Although I actually know someone who is trying to game the sacramental system. I also know that individual lurks on CAF and has a suspicion of who I am because we have discussed this a little and I hope they read this thread because they need to.

 

[mommyof4]

I just want to make the comment that I find the idea of gaming the system repugnant, as if God were stupid and mechanical and someone could do this only if they totally miss What It Is All About.

Although I actually know someone who is trying to game the sacramental system. I also know that individual lurks on CAF and has a suspicion of who I am because we have discussed this a little and I hope they read this thread because they need to.

Well, pray for them, for goodness sakes!

 

[Victorious]

Hi,
If you get to know a **true believer **who believes in OSAS long enough I guarentee you they will sin and repent and ask forgiveness. I believe in OSAS I completely disagree with your statement that we think we dont sin anymore or that we cant. I sin daily and I admit it Any OSAS believers who think they can do what they want are fooling themselves. I dont doubt there are some out there. Im not one of them:thumbsup:

I didn’t say all OSAS believers think that real Christians don’t sin. I said (a) that some do, and (b) that that line of thinking is a logical next step from OSAS.

 

[Truthstalker]

Well, pray for them, for goodness sakes!

Daily, for almost a year now, sometimes several times a day…

 

[mommyof4]

Daily, for almost a year now, sometimes several times a day…

Great! Keep it up. I’ll join you.

 

[scylla]

Hi, Look at it this way. God knows every sin we are ever going to commit–right. So when we repent he already knows what we did and that we are going to repent. So when you repent what you are actually doing is agreeing with God that what you did was wrong. The thing is after we are saved we still have to repent because God knows all but we dont. So what God wants is us to humble ourselves and submit to His authority by agreeing with Him that we sinned and ask for forgiveness. Repentnace is all about submitting to His authority.

I agree with you about needing repentance but I am now confused as it makes no sense to me how it would work without insulting the person or God. So, how do you know you are saved or not?

Can you please explain, I am not trying to bait you, just looking for a logical explanation. Please try and make it nice and clear.

Thanks and God Bless
Scylla

 

[atsheeran]

“Gaming” the sacramental system by continuing in wanton sin makes about as much sense as “gaming” an all-you-can-eat restaurant by going there without any appetite. ("GOTCHA SUCKERS! I’M NOT HUNGRY!! TAKE THAT!)

 

[spauline]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

My response to this is that to do this is to have a seared conscience. The response would be that it is perfectly Catholic and perfectly correct. God desires all men to be saved and so however we can work out our salvation is fine with Him. So we should all game the system because the outcome is justified.

Responses?

The argument falls flat on its face because Catholicism formally teaches that in most cases, there are REQUIRED DISPOSITIONS for the Sacrament to be fruitful for an adult recipient. Hence, Confession does not remit sins if the person has not at least imperfect contrition. Similarly, as we all know, receiving the Eucharist unworthily constitutes another mortal sin. Also, if a teenager is in mortal sin at the time, the Confirmation may be valid but will not be fruitful until the obstacle to grace is removed. etc…

 

[petra]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

My response to this is that to do this is to have a seared conscience. The response would be that it is perfectly Catholic and perfectly correct. God desires all men to be saved and so however we can work out our salvation is fine with Him. So we should all game the system because the outcome is justified.

Responses?

No, the sacraments cannot be gamed. God is present in the confessional and knows the “penitent’s” heart. If confession is being abused the way you describe, the person is committing a sin against the sacrament, which is known as sacrilege. That, itself, is a mortal sin. Your “friend’s” scenario assumes God is a fool. He is not. It is impossible to “work the system.”

Really, to see the sacraments as a “system” at all is very Protestant. Sadly, it is not obvious to them that the sacraments are deeply spiritual and tremendous tools for spiritual growth.

 

[tdgesq]

What I’ve been taught:

First, there are still consequences to sin. You commit adultery, so your wife doesn’t trust you, or you spend money on cocaine, so your children starve. Your interest in the things of God declines; your spiritual sight decreases and you become spiritually blind.

Secondly, there is God’s discipline, which is something Not To Be Taken Lightly. If you are saved, then God sees to it that you will persevere and will drag you through whatever He has to in order to make sure you make it. Hebrews 12 comes into play. God treats you like sons, meaning He expects a holy life, and you can expect the rod of correction to come upon you in ways that will be extremely painful, but it is meant for your good.

Thirdly, you question whether you were saved. Is God actually at work in your life? Do you take Him seriously? Maybe it’s time to thoroughly and conscientiously examine yourself, because something is there that is not pleasing God, and it is time to make some changes and adjustments so that the sin does not happen again.

Fourth, you realize you’ve wounded Jesus, the one you love more than life. You’ve insulted your savior, held Him up to public ridicule because you haven’t witnessed for Him with your life but rather have become lukewarm, worthless salt, an unfruitful tree.

Fifth, there may be consequences in terms of your ability to minister in the church. If you have certain problems, it may not be best for you to be in a position of trust, such as teaching Sunday School or singing a solo or collecting the offering.

Sixth, your friends, when they find out about it, may decide to help deliver you and play Holy Spirit. You may have conversations in which items 1-4 figure prominently as people decide to restore in love a lost brother.

This all depends on the severity of the sin, of course. But some regard all sin as equally bad, in line with James’ ‘if you break one part of the law, you’ve broken all of it.’

I meant to respond to this earlier, but I’m fighting off a particularly nasty cold and just haven’t been up to it. If this response seems a little bit goofy then you know why.

Unless I’ve missed something, all of the consequences that you’ve listed that flow from sin are temporal. We may be punished in this life, but not the next. Even under this view, trying to game the system - which I interpret to mean reception of the Sacraments without the required intention - would be in the Catholic worldview a serious offense. The efficacy of the Sacrament on the individual would also be in question. In any case, it would lead to the undesirable consequences that you listed.

But Catholics have a reason to take this kind of abuse of the Sacraments more seriously still. We believe that even after having faith in Jesus Christ we are required to work out our salvation day by day through our choices and actions. When we are judged it will not just be on the basis of how much faith we had, but on how carried out that faith in the world. Catholics believe that this kind of game playing with the Sacraments could have consequences for their salvation. Extreme badness here.

 

[Atreyu]

Being Protestant, I am no expert on Catholic Confession by a long shot. Still, isn’t it necessary in any confession, under the Catholic viewpoint or otherwise, that the person confessing his sins be truly repentent? If you are “gaming the system” it is highly unlikely that you have recognized the sin to which you are confessing and have committed to turn from that sin, i.e., to repent of the sin. And, if you are not truly repentent, how can you be absolved of your sins?

I haven’t read the rest of the thread, I just wanted to say that this was a great answer, rr1213!

“Gaming” Confession in this way constitutes the sin of presumption. The Confession is not valid; in fact it is sacrilegious.

 

[Sandi]

Another Protestant weighing in here: you can go to confession to every priest on the planet and fool every one of them but you’ll never fool God.

 

[spauline]

Another Protestant weighing in here: you can go to confession to every priest on the planet and fool every one of them but you’ll never fool God.

and so like what, we have not addressed this already?

 

[Truthstalker]

Also, when I look at myself and what I am tempted to do, I think I would be tempted to try to game the system if I became Catholic -even knowing full well that God is’t fooled. I still try to hide in the bushes and blame someone else for my sins. Which prompts the question: due to the tremendous desire we have to justify ourselves rather than trusting in Christ’s work, and our readiness to deceive, because of the power of sin, not just ourselves but others, how can anyone really make a perfect confession? I would think there would have to be an actual grace to do it right, and that every time. Are we not all tempted to game the system and reduce our relationship with God to mechanism and formula, to suck the life out of it for our own benefit, to overthrow the throne of God and set up self-worship? And if you gave into the temptation then how in the world do you every convince yourself you made a valid confession later on, knowing you were capable of deceit in this? To some degree I find myself drawn to every sin, to some more than others, and to deny it. Regardless of consequence or reasonableness, sin always seems like the best course, the sanest course, sometimes even the holiest course while it is baiting one. I cannot rule out falling into gaming the system; I must take heed that I do not. There but for the grace of God go I the way of my friend.