Gates of Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter AMJ
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AMJ

Guest
Hi folks. Brand (spanking) new member. I’m not sure I even deserve the “Junior” title.

Stumbled on this site last night – actually about 3 AM. Didn’t want to toss and turn and wake the Mrs. Happy to have found it and registered. Thought I’d start with a question/issue that always gets me a little aggitated. I’m sure it shouldn’t. Since it’s probably an “oldie” to you senior members, maybe there’s a short answer. Sorry if it’s too much of a softball.

Years ago I heard or read a compelling treatment of Christ’s statement that, “Upon this rock I will build My Church.” No problem there. But He follows with, “And even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” This latter part is universally presented as if to suggest that the Church is a sanctuary from evil. I spent over 30 years in the military and traveled to many places and heard this scripture delivered and analyzed by many different priests. I’ve asked most about it with little meaningful response. Maybe I didn’t ask it right.

So the short version is this: Jesus doesn’t say, “…even the evil BEHIND the gates of hell will prevail…”. He says the gates themselves won’t prevail. Doesn’t this imply that, through His Church, He will destroy both the gates and the implied evil behind them? Isn’t this really His call to arms, demanding that His Church (us) not huddle behind some supposed safety the Church will certainly provide. Sorry again for “testing the waters” with an easy one. Blogging in general is a new thing to an old(er) … person.
 
The Haydock Commentary from the Douay-Rhiems has an analysis of this verse much like yours, except that it is the strength of the gates of hell that are being fought against:
*The gates of hell, &c. * That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. (Challoner)
Click to expand...
 
40.png
AMJ:
So the short version is this: Jesus doesn’t say, “…even the evil BEHIND the gates of hell will prevail…”. He says the gates themselves won’t prevail. Doesn’t this imply that, through His Church, He will destroy both the gates and the implied evil behind them? Isn’t this really His call to arms, demanding that His Church (us) not huddle behind some supposed safety the Church will certainly provide.
Click to expand...
I would say that the comment in question is an example of a literary device called metonymy, iin which a part which represents the whole, as when a law says, “The Crown,” to mean the government under the crowned monarch. Thus, the gates of Hades = Hades itself, and everything in it.

With your background, the reading that it is a call to arms is hardly surprising, and I think that you can take that from Ephesians 6: Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground. So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
 
Thanks, M.

While “what I did” need not equal “who I am”, I’m not challenged by that part of my life. Therefore, I’ll accept the metonymy, which is likely the intended perspective, and thank you for the Ephesians.

From my perspective, this seems to be an especially challenging period…a tangible assault by the gates of hell. At such a time, our church must certainly be more than a place of refuge. No time to shudder in the pew.

And no time for our church leaders to pat our hands and say, “there, there.” So I suppose you are correct, and my background may always lead me to hear the bugles in the distance. What’s the saying? If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it. I hope not to find things in scripture which aren’t really there, and to hear only those calls that are intended. Thanks for the response.
 
Hello AMJ,

I salute you and thank you for your service to (I assume) the United States military.

This may interest you. Jesus tells His Church that if her hand is her undoing, she is to cut it off and throw it into Gehhena. Better to loose a portion of her body in hell than to have the whole body of the Church pulled into hell.

Jesus gave the Apostles, therefore Apostolic Successors, use of the sword of His mouth. Jesus swears to Apostolic Successors that who ever they hold bound to sin on earth, He will hold bound to sin in heaven. A person cannot go to heaven if Jesus holds them bound to their sins in heaven, thus that portion of the body of the Church is cast into Gehhena.

Even one soul, bound to their sin and burning in hell for all eternity, is more death than the combined loss of years of physical life lost from all the wars in human history.

I do believe that we live in dangerous times filled with temptations and temptors pulling the body of the Church (1.1 billion Catholics) toward damnation.

May we pray that Apostolic Successors draw the sword of our Lord’s mouth and wield it upon the foe. May Apostolic Successors lock n’ load and protect and defend Christ’s Bride on earth with the tremendously deadly fire power that Christ has left with them.

Please visit Throwing Stones

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB ISA 11:4

The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​
**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”
 
AMJ, first welcome.

Concerning the “Gates of Hell” I think Mystophilus’ point on “Metonymy” is what you should follow. I say this because if you were to look at the actual passage in the Greek, that we have today, all that is said is, “The gates of Hell” no mentioned of powers behind the gates.

Also, this is another passage that really shouldn’t be taken alone to understand it. Studying the Gospels and letters of the NT, I think what Christ Jesus teaches is that the coming Kingdom of God is an act of God though Christ. The Church the as developed by the power of the Holy Spirit is the Human Instrument by which God will bring about the fullness of His Kingdom.
 
A professor once told my class that the phrase : gates shall not prevail had to do with siege warfare. The gates were the weakest part of a fortress or castle, and attackers usually tried to take them down. If the gates held against the attack, they “prevailed.” The analogy Jesus seems to be drawing is that of the Kingdom of God attacking the very gates of Hell itself. Hell doesn’t stand a chance.

I hope this helps.
 
Thanks to all of you for your additional perspectives. Interestingly, not all of them seem to line up. The concept of Christ’s word as a sword or rod was intriguing, yet – perhaps coincidentally – someone on another thread (I lost it while scanning) went out of his way to argue that the bible was NOT to be considered as a sword.

So I think perhaps we read and hear a bit differently than one another. That, at first, might seem acceptable; however, I suspect most who come to this (great) website are seeking confirmation and agreement less than they are seeking precision.

All-in-all, this seems a very worthwhile experience. Would that I could have a dozen of you sitting together over a good meal to discuss/haggle/argue/learn with. Too many Catholics/Christians (hopefully only in my own experience) clam right up when you poke at the issue of the foundations of their faith. Perhaps it’s easier to admit weakness or confusion through the filter (behind the screen) of a blog.

Either way…thanks all.
 
:eek:
40.png
AMJ:
All-in-all, this seems a very worthwhile experience. Would that I could have a dozen of you sitting together over a good meal to discuss/haggle/argue/learn with. Too many Catholics/Christians (hopefully only in my own experience) clam right up when you poke at the issue of the foundations of their faith. Perhaps it’s easier to admit weakness or confusion through the filter (behind the screen) of a blog.

Either way…thanks all.
Click to expand...
Stick around! There are plenty of threads that discuss the beliefs of the Catholic church. It may bring up more things that you never really thought about, make you stronger in your faith…

…but then again, as many people here can attest to, it can make you quite *addicted * to this forum…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top