Gay = Condemned to Hell?

[FatherMerrin]

There’s a question I’ve been agonizing over for several days. If I was confronted by a homosexual person (male or female) who asked if they’re really going to cast down into eternal hellfire because of the gender of their partner, what should I tell them? I know it’s been said here before that it’s up to God and God alone to make those kind of choices, but I doubt it would be a sufficient answer for them.

Can the number of good deeds in a person’s life mitigate “bad” deeds? If these two men/women felt they were genuinely in love with each other (love, mind you, not lust), would I simply state why I need to personally disapprove of such a romance, and otherwise leave them be?

 

[MNathaniel]

There’s a question I’ve been agonizing over for several days. If I was confronted…

First off, I notice you said “if”.

I might recommend saving your agony for things that actually confront you. Not hypotheticals. Many of us have loved ones with SSA so we actually have to have these conversations – but if you actually don’t, and such hypothetical conversations are only in your head, maybe you should be focusing on something more directly relevant to your life right now, on your own walk with God.

Can the number of good deeds in a person’s life mitigate “bad” deeds?

No. Catholicism teaches that we cannot earn our salvation. There is no number of good deeds that can ‘balance the scales’, as it were. Salvation is a free gift from God, who paid a debt that we can never pay. We must accept his free gift – and then follow him. We must be baptized into the death and life of Christ such that our lives are no longer our own and no longer do we live but it is Christ who lives in us.

genuinely in love with each other (love, mind you, not lust)

To love is to will the good of the other. Goodness and truth both find their fullness in God. To will for any other person anything short of the full goodness offered to them of life in Christ (including the calling to chastity, and true teaching about what chastity is) would be to fail to will the fullness of good for the other person. This failure may be culpable or ignorant, but either way each person is holding the other in a situation that is less than the fullness of goodness God wants for them, and in love God calls us to speak the truth in gentleness, so that each person may live in the fullness of his love.

 

[JimG]

What does gay mean? Does it mean that one engages in immoral sexual activity?
Let me rephrase the scenario. If a man is having an affair with someone else’s spouse, and if he were to ask, will I be cast into hell because of the marital status of my partner? How should I respond? What if they genuinely love each other?

 

[redcatholic]

Gay doesn’t equal hell. Sexual promiscuity outside the confines of a marriage that is unrepented equals hell. So when one chooses a sexual sin above God then one is really choosing their own damnation. And that goes for gay or strait.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

No. Catholicism teaches that we cannot earn our salvation. There is no number of good deeds that can ‘balance the scales’, as it were. Salvation is a free gift from God, who paid a debt that we can never pay. We must accept his free gift – and then follow him. We must be baptized into the death and life of Christ such that our lives are no longer our own and no longer do we live but it is Christ who lives in us.

This understanding is new for me. While I agree in part, based off of Paul’s Romans, are we as Catholics not asked to strive for perfection? This is how I was raised and I feel it is confirmed having read Catholic Classics like the Imitation of Christ, St. Faustina’s Diary, and Devotion to the Sacred Heart. All of which I recommend for Catholics. Again, I know Good Work doesn’t equate to Salvation, as even a sinner may do Good Works, but we as Catholic are asked to reject sin and give ourselves whole heartedly to God. What you describe sounds more Calvinist, like saved by Faith alone. Just want clarification.

As for the OP, @MNathaniel gives you good advice, if the question is a hypothetical consider yourself blessed for it not to be a reality of yours and trust in the Divine Mercy of God. Put Pride aside, and give everything to the Will of God, for you are blessed so are others even those who may be Gay.

 

[MNathaniel]

While I agree in part, based off of Paul’s Romans, are we as Catholics not asked to strive for perfection?

Yes, absolutely. Jesus calls us to become perfect even as his Father in heaven is perfect. (Wow! What a tall order!) I apologize if I made it sounds like there’s no place at all for works. Works are indeed important – but they don’t add up to salvation by counterbalancing sin in the way that the OP seemed to be asking about.

Catholics do not believe in the ancient Egyptian weighing of deeds against the feather of Ma’at. We do not believe that if we persist intentionally in one sin, we can make up for it by performing different good deeds on the side, as if God tallies up the good in the next life, subtract the bad, then gives us our just rewards. (We should all tremble at the thought of receiving our just rewards! It is the mercy of Christ that equips us to even participate in anything good in the first place.)

Original sin is real. And even after baptism, all it takes is one truly mortal sin to be, well, mortal. Repentance must always be total, never partial. We cannot cling to “just one sin” and still call ourselves disciples of Christ because we stack up unrelated good works on the side.

This doesn’t mean we don’t still have thorns in our sides, or don’t still fall. We still have to go to Confession. But we need to be inclined to go to Confession. And we must be able to honestly resolve to do our best to avoid future sins and the near occasion to sin.

I know Good Work doesn’t equate to Salvation, as even a sinner may do Good Works, but we as Catholic are asked to reject sin and give ourselves whole heartedly to God.

I agree with this.

 

[TheLittleLady]

asked if they’re really going to cast down into eternal hellfire because of the gender of their partner, what should I tell them?

That it is something between the person and God.

You and I cannot determine if someone else’s deeds are mortally sinful. Thank GOD

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Great response thanks for the clarification.

Again, if there are Protestants or Evangelicals reading this to OP and @MNathaniel I have met those blessed Christians whose life is a straight line and has not involved sin. I’m grateful they are so blessed, clearly the Holy Spirit is working through them! But I know for many of us, including me, sin has been committed in life and for us, there is repentance, atonement and the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

I’m straight and don’t have SSA but for @FatherMerrin just to universalize your question with my experience. For a long period of time I felt guilty about the blessing God, the Christ, and the intercession of Mary had bestowed upon me. I wanted to preach to the world and testify and make sure everyone would take the same path I did. But, the saddening part for me is there is nothing to very little I can do for the Secular world to convince them that Christian life leads to the best life.

It was only very recently, through prayer and reflection, I realized while I felt guilt I also held Pride. I felt I was special for the help God gave me, what I wasn’t acknowledging is that I’m not Special; God helps everyone who reaches out to him with sincerity, repentance and a desire to reject guilt. I had to acknowledge I’m just one in Billions.

So, now I pray daily for the Suffering to reach out to God and the Sinner to repent. If only the suffering knew that by reaching out to the Lord, the Lord will answer. This doesn’t mean you will become “wealthy,” or the suffering will go away, but the Lord will give you strength and fellowship with other Christians to see you through your suffering. Again, the Secular world is premised on the lifestyle of the superficial wealthy; they can live that way because they have all kinds of safety nets. For the rest of us living in the world, we can’t live that way and be happy (that is assuming these wealthy are happy) for us there is the Gospel and Christian Faith and Community.

 

[FatherMerrin]

First off, I notice you said “if”.

I might recommend saving your agony for things that actually confront you. Not hypotheticals. Many of us have loved ones with SSA so we actually have to have these conversations – but if you actually don’t, and such hypothetical conversations are only in your head, maybe you should be focusing on something more directly relevant to your life right now, on your own walk with God.

There wasn’t any need to highlight my “if” in bold, good sir. All I’m doing is attempting to ready myself for the kind of situation I described above, were it to arise (which it probably will at some time or another in my life). This isn’t about hypotheticals, it’s about giving people facing this type of conflict a sound answer to their question.

Rest assured I dwell on all the relevant details of my own life, almost to a neurotic extent. But my walk with God inevitably involves other people, as well. Not to the degree where I become detached from God; simply to the point where I’ll have the knowledge prepared within my own mind when I need it.

 

[FatherMerrin]

Gay doesn’t equal hell. Sexual promiscuity outside the confines of a marriage that is unrepented equals hell. So when one chooses a sexual sin above God then one is really choosing their own damnation. And that goes for gay or strait.

See, that’s the sort of reply that makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[Cruciferi]

You and I cannot determine if someone else’s deeds are mortally sinful.

No we cannot. God is the Judge and he’ll review the good and the bad done in our lives.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

This is just for anyone reading, and I’m universalizing the question. There have been great responses.

But the way I see our contemporary world is we are living in Modern Ancient times. Where the whole Media (movies, music, television, books, news…etc…) is written by and for the hedonistic and secular Greek and Roman (ie the wealthy in power). For them Freedom is Freedom TO commit as much hedonistic sin as possible and happiness is committing this sin. Clearly, it is very tough for them to respond to our Bible because our Bible speaks against such things.

Well, gratefully, I’m not a Greek or Roman; I’m a peasant or a barbarian. Some other peasants or barbarians see the media propaganda and think that is the way to live and even try to live that way or aspire to live that way. What a world of heartache they are in for and live in! As a Christian Peasant, Freedom for ME is Freedom FROM Sin. Through Prayer and Reflection, along with the requisite suffering in the world, I have come to a place of confidence in God and in his Divine Mercy that I reject, easily, all that the Greeks and Romans believe in. Knowing God’s ways are more fruitful and lead to a happiness that cannot be purchased by sin.

As Paul writes:

Ephesians 2:1
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Again, for those who FREEDOM means FREEDOM TO Sin, they only feel alive when they sin ie, saying things like, “I feel so alive.” For those of us who are Christians FREEDOM FROM Sin means we are truly alive in Faith at all times rejecting the death of Sin. My concern is I wish more Peasants and Barbarians would reject the Greeks and Romans and come to God.

Going back, to your original question for the Gay person you hypothetically describe are their values FREEDOM TO Commit Sin or, on the other hand, a search to find Faith and a Freedom FROM SIN.

 

[Freddy]

Gay doesn’t equal hell. Sexual promiscuity outside the confines of a marriage that is unrepented equals hell. So when one chooses a sexual sin above God then one is really choosing their own damnation. And that goes for gay or strait.

Is your forum name a reflection of your position in tbe church?

 

[Dorothy]

I believe the answer to such questions should be that we have he Eucharist and prayer to help us live according to God’s will.

Every person will have various challenges in their life, which can sanctify them if they put the Lord first in all things.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If I was confronted by a homosexual person (male or female) who asked if they’re really going to cast down into eternal hellfire because of the gender of their partner,

It’s not about “the gender of their partner”, it’s about them having sexual relations with someone to whom they are not married.

If I as a woman were engaging in such relations with a man to whom I wasn’t married in the Church, I’d be risking hellfire because I was fornicating, not because of his gender. I suppose the answer would be, “well, he’s a man, so you COULD get married in the Church”, but what if one of us weren’t free to marry in the Church and there was no way to make it so, or he flatly refused to marry me in the Church? Life is not so simple that you always get to just go properly marry everybody you fall in love with.

Also, note I said “Risking hellfire”, since, as others have said, we have absolutely no way to know who gets sent there and who doesn’t.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

He named himself after a fictional character.

 

[otjm]

If I was confronted by a homosexual person (male or female) who asked if they’re really going to cast down into eternal hellfire because of the gender of their partner, what should I tell them?

Catholic moral theology would respond that the gender of their partner is not the issue.

The issue is the proper use of our sexual response to our spouse - meaning that sex outside of marriage is wrong, morally (and seriously) for all people - straight or gay.

Given that society seems to presume that sex outside of marriage is perfectly okay, that is a difficult issue to begin with; and gay couples are not “unaware” of society’s norm for heterosexual couples.

Coupled with that is that the Church holds that marriage is between a man and a woman. This goes clear back to Genesis - be fruitful and multiply. Homosexual couples cannot (outside other intervention such as artificial insemination for females - which is also considered morally seriously wrong even for heterosexual couples). So a gay couple may love one another as St. Paul refers to love - self giving, other directed.

And as sexual intercourse is reserved for the procreation of children and the union of the spouses, and according to the Church marriage is between a man and a woman, then any couple - be they gay or straight, is not to engage in sexual activity.

What is often misunderstood is the term being “chaste”. It does not mean in and of itself no sexual activity, as married couples are called to chastity just as everyone else. Being chaste means being tight ordered to another; and so being chaste outside of marriage means not having sexual congress with another. In short, society has lost the word “chaste” in any conversation, so the battle is uphill from the start.

Can the number of good deeds in a person’s life mitigate “bad” deeds? If these two men/women felt they were genuinely in love with each other (love, mind you, not lust), would I simply state why I need to personally disapprove of such a romance, and otherwise leave them be?

“Romance” is an emotional matter. Love is not an emotional matter, it is a matter of choice - of putting one’s own desires below the the proper needs of the other. In short, we are called to eternal life; and likewise we are called to be self- less and other -directed. And if the other is inclined to sin, we are called to avoid, to admonish, to direct to the moral choice.

Being “in love” is an emotion; love is a choice. Deuteronomy 30:15-20. 15 “Today I am giving you a choice between good and evil, between life and death. 16 If you obey the commands of the Lord your God , which I give you today, if you love him, obey him, and keep all his laws, then you will prosper…”

 

[Freddy]

He named himself after a fictional character.

Me too…

 

[FatherMerrin]

No. It’s the name of a principal character from The Exorcist. I’m just another guy trying to figure out where he stands with Catholicism.

 

[Freddy]

No. It’s the name of a principal character from The Exorcist. I’m just another guy trying to figure out where he stands with Catholicism.

Ah yes. I recognise von Sydow now.