Gay, Lesbian Straight Educational Network Day of Silence - April 11th

  • Thread starter Thread starter gam197
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ehm… sorry, but no. I have never seen anyone claim anything of the sort, not once in my life. Even if you could substantiate this with a quote (which I heavily doubt), it would be nothing other than the exception to the rule.

If anything, it is bullying of LGB (not to speak of T) individuals which is generally downplayed, ignored or in some cases even encouraged (intentionally or not). When I went to school, we had programs to fight bullying of people with disabilities, we had programs to fight bullying of people because of religion, and so on, but no programs to fight bullying of people with same-sex attraction or transgenderism. At best, they were implicitly included in the general anti-bullying programs, but then those were mainly aimed towards stopping the bullying of kids with nerd tendencies, and had no mention whatsoever of sexual orientation or gender identity.

But I graduated from high school in 2001, and a lot has happened since then. But to claim that people are denying that heterosexual, cisgender kids are bullied, is simply ridiculous.

Catholic schools in my area also spend extra resources on preventing and resolving bullying situations, since “good social and teaching climate” is generally a good selling point.

If someone who proclaims to be “Christian” backs away from the fight against bullying because a program aims to stop bullying of those not liked by said person, I think that person should consider whether he or she is a bully him- or herself. I’m sorry, but I would prefer if such persons actually did back away.
Thank you. There are so many on these forums who don’t believe that heterosexuals get bullied and it is rampart. They get bullied for everything - you name it, there is someone who thinks he has the right to bother someone else for whatever reason.

I am glad the schools have programs for bullying. I just think they are ineffective and that is why parents put their children in private schools or home school. Not the the sole reason, of course but it is a factor.

Sadly, maybe I am cynical, but I don’t think they can resolve it as there is just too much of it. I am certainly not denying that gay students don’t get bullied. The figures that were quoted, I am sure are accurate
 
Thank you. There are so many on these forums who don’t believe that heterosexuals get bullied and it is rampart. They get bullied for everything - you name it, there is someone who thinks he has the right to bother someone else for whatever reason.

I am glad the schools have programs for bullying. I just think they are ineffective and that is why parents put their children in private schools or home school. Not the the sole reason, of course but it is a factor.

Sadly, maybe I am cynical, but I don’t think they can resolve it as there is just too much of it. I am certainly not denying that gay students don’t get bullied. The figures that were quoted, I am sure are accurate
They do get bullied, but not for merely being heterosexual and the bullies are pretty much always heterosexual or repressed LGBT.
 
They do get bullied, but not for merely being heterosexual and the bullies are pretty much always heterosexual or repressed LGBT.
I think you are splitting hairs here. Maybe it is not solely based on the fact that they are heterosexuals but the fights that ensue over heterosexual relationships is brutal.
 
I think you are splitting hairs here. Maybe it is not solely based on the fact that they are heterosexuals but the fights that ensue over heterosexual relationships is brutal.
Well, I gave one example where an attack was solely based on the heterosexuality of a girl who was the romantic target of another girl.

But it really doesn’t matter. Putting more emphasis on homosexual bullying victims or giving homosexual bullies a “pass” is equally wrong. The whole concept of anti-bullying should be that ALL students deserve fair treatment regardless of who they are. Singling out homosexuals to get special treatment goes against the concept of fair treatment. Christians should not support any agenda that promotes the philosophy that bullying homosexuals is “more wrong” than bullying anyone else or that homosexuals deserve more protection than anyone else against bullies.
 
Well, I gave one example where an attack was solely based on the heterosexuality of a girl who was the romantic target of another girl.

But it really doesn’t matter. Putting more emphasis on homosexual bullying victims or giving homosexual bullies a “pass” is equally wrong. The whole concept of anti-bullying should be that ALL students deserve fair treatment regardless of who they are. Singling out homosexuals to get special treatment goes against the concept of fair treatment. Christians should not support any agenda that promotes the philosophy that bullying homosexuals is “more wrong” than bullying anyone else or that homosexuals deserve more protection than anyone else against bullies.
No one is saying that it is “more wrong” to bully gay people. What we are saying is that bullying of gay people happens at greater rates than bullying of heterosexuals, and as such, there should be special emphasis on reducing that abnormally high rate. Same goes for racial bullying, etc. The reason no one focuses on the bullying of the poor heterosexual, white, rich male jock is because it happens at such a nonexistent rate as to almost BE entirely nonexistent.

However, as you’ll notice, when that heterosexual, white, rich male jock enters a fraternity in college, they ARE given a special focus with regards to being a victim of bullying with our culture’s high valuing of anti-hazing programs. This isn’t an LGBT issue; it’s an anti-murder issue.
 
No Oops.

I was referring to the fact that many people feel that catholics should not even be discussing issues about gay relations. Some feel it is uncharitable.
That is what I meant. The question was not to be taken literally.
 
But we do know that the rates for HIV are rampart in the gay men population. Their life expectancy is about 20-30 years less and they live with chronic illness often from a young age. It is not something we want to hold up for anyone to get involved with or even try out of curiosity. Now don’t jump on me for that comment.
The HIV rates are not directly linked to being homosexual, they are linked to unsafe sexual practices and having many partners. Many of us are monogamous, despite our gay inclination, believe it or not. That is a correlation without causality. I would also like to see a citation from a peer reviewed source on the life expectancy being 20 to 30 years shorter as well as us living with chronic illness from a young age, please. And nothing from the charlatans at NARTH.

I have listened to enough stories from my brethren to know the horrors many of them have lived through and reading your flippant responses in this thread to justify this knee jerk walk-out nonsense is something that actually causes me a great deal of anger. I have known men beaten and bloodied every other week for being effeminate. Wonderful guys with really big hearts. I have known girls raped by teenage male peers under the guise of trying to cure them of lesbianism. Heterosexuals maybe bullied for what they do but my brethren are bullied for who they are. Visibility will reduce that because bullies are cowards and won’t bully if the entire school stands behind the little guy in support. That is the point.

Since I doubt the pain or experiences of myself or my brethren will be something that sways or interests you, also realize that the youth would look at such a move by the Church as bigoted and backwards and you would run the risk of pushing even more youth from the pews. Make no mistake that my brethren and myself would not hesitate to capitalize on that opportunity, either. Kids are dying. The stakes are too high for us not to stand up to our foes.
 
Ehm… sorry, but no. I have never seen anyone claim anything of the sort, not once in my life. Even if you could substantiate this with a quote (which I heavily doubt), it would be nothing other than the exception to the rule.

If anything, it is bullying of LGB (not to speak of T) individuals which is generally downplayed, ignored or in some cases even encouraged (intentionally or not). When I went to school, we had programs to fight bullying of people with disabilities, we had programs to fight bullying of people because of religion, and so on, but no programs to fight bullying of people with same-sex attraction or transgenderism. At best, they were implicitly included in the general anti-bullying programs, but then those were mainly aimed towards stopping the bullying of kids with nerd tendencies, and had no mention whatsoever of sexual orientation or gender identity.

But I graduated from high school in 2001, and a lot has happened since then. But to claim that people are denying that heterosexual, cisgender kids are bullied, is simply ridiculous.

Catholic schools in my area also spend extra resources on preventing and resolving bullying situations, since “good social and teaching climate” is generally a good selling point.

If someone who proclaims to be “Christian” backs away from the fight against bullying because a program aims to stop bullying of those not liked by said person, I think that person should consider whether he or she is a bully him- or herself. I’m sorry, but I would prefer if such persons actually did back away.
Well, with regards to bullying of out transgender kids I don’t think it’s that bad for transmen due to the fact they’d probably be considered a tomboy which is acceptable however transwomen get treated as less than human due to that often being how males who act feminine are treated by society.
Well, I gave one example where an attack was solely based on the heterosexuality of a girl who was the romantic target of another girl.

But it really doesn’t matter. Putting more emphasis on homosexual bullying victims or giving homosexual bullies a “pass” is equally wrong. The whole concept of anti-bullying should be that ALL students deserve fair treatment regardless of who they are. Singling out homosexuals to get special treatment goes against the concept of fair treatment. Christians should not support any agenda that promotes the philosophy that bullying homosexuals is “more wrong” than bullying anyone else or that homosexuals deserve more protection than anyone else against bullies.
Wow, one case, that’s probably like 1/1000 the rate of boys being cruel to girls for spurning their advances. Sometimes boys will rape girls for refusing them.
The HIV rates are not directly linked to being homosexual, they are linked to unsafe sexual practices and having many partners. Many of us are monogamous, despite our gay inclination, believe it or not. That is a correlation without causality. I would also like to see a citation from a peer reviewed source on the life expectancy being 20 to 30 years shorter as well as us living with chronic illness from a young age, please. And nothing from the charlatans at NARTH.

I have listened to enough stories from my brethren to know the horrors many of them have lived through and reading your flippant responses in this thread to justify this knee jerk walk-out nonsense is something that actually causes me a great deal of anger. I have known men beaten and bloodied every other week for being effeminate. Wonderful guys with really big hearts. I have known girls raped by teenage male peers under the guise of trying to cure them of lesbianism. Heterosexuals maybe bullied for what they do but my brethren are bullied for who they are. Visibility will reduce that because bullies are cowards and won’t bully if the entire school stands behind the little guy in support. That is the point.

Since I doubt the pain or experiences of myself or my brethren will be something that sways or interests you, also realize that the youth would look at such a move by the Church as bigoted and backwards and you would run the risk of pushing even more youth from the pews. Make no mistake that my brethren and myself would not hesitate to capitalize on that opportunity, either. Kids are dying. The stakes are too high for us not to stand up to our foes.
You’re probably going to get a study whose data is 20-30 years old for example one paper concluded that gay men had a life expectancy 8-21 years shorter, but that paper used data from 1987-1992, since then transmission rates of HIV have fallen a lot and there is actual treatment for HIV/AIDS so the gap is almost certainly less than ten years and probably less than five. For reference life expectancy of men without a HS diploma and men with a college degree is over 13 years.
 
Well, with regards to bullying of out transgender kids I don’t think it’s that bad for transmen due to the fact they’d probably be considered a tomboy which is acceptable however transwomen get treated as less than human due to that often being how males who act feminine are treated by society.
That is true, transmen have generally been more accepted, since tomboys are seen as cute. There are stories about transmen throughout the history of Europe, and while they were sometimes punished (I recently read a news article about a transman in Denmark who was executed a few centuries ago, apparently he was not the only one), they were also often accepted. My personal observation is that the stories about acceptance are more often from Catholic countries, while stories about it being punished are more often from Protestant countries, but that may simply be because of the selection of recounts and history I’ve read.

But still, when a transman takes steps toward transition and “goes beyond” being a tomboy, bad things can happen. Brandon Teena being one example. But I agree, generally transmen have it easier socially, even when they transition. I’m wondering if this is because men in general don’t feel challenged by it as much, while transwomen seem to challenge some men’s masculinity for some reason I can’t fathom.
 
That is true, transmen have generally been more accepted, since tomboys are seen as cute. There are stories about transmen throughout the history of Europe, and while they were sometimes punished (I recently read a news article about a transman in Denmark who was executed a few centuries ago, apparently he was not the only one), they were also often accepted. My personal observation is that the stories about acceptance are more often from Catholic countries, while stories about it being punished are more often from Protestant countries, but that may simply be because of the selection of recounts and history I’ve read.
It’s due to fundamental differences in theology.
But still, when a transman takes steps toward transition and “goes beyond” being a tomboy, bad things can happen. Brandon Teena being one example. But I agree, generally transmen have it easier socially, even when they transition. I’m wondering if this is because men in general don’t feel challenged by it as much, while transwomen seem to challenge some men’s masculinity for some reason I can’t fathom.
The difference is due to sexism and conceptions of privileged with being male perceived as being better and privileged which results in biological males who identify as a woman being considered as mentally disturbed for wanting to be treated as women.
 
The HIV rates are not directly linked to being homosexual, they are linked to unsafe sexual practices and having many partners. Many of us are monogamous, despite our gay inclination, believe it or not. That is a correlation without causality. I would also like to see a citation from a peer reviewed source on the life expectancy being 20 to 30 years shorter as well as us living with chronic illness from a young age, please. And nothing from the charlatans at NARTH.

I have listened to enough stories from my brethren to know the horrors many of them have lived through and reading your flippant responses in this thread to justify this knee jerk walk-out nonsense is something that actually causes me a great deal of anger. I have known men beaten and bloodied every other week for being effeminate. Wonderful guys with really big hearts. I have known girls raped by teenage male peers under the guise of trying to cure them of lesbianism. Heterosexuals maybe bullied for what they do but my brethren are bullied for who they are. Visibility will reduce that because bullies are cowards and won’t bully if the entire school stands behind the little guy in support. That is the point.

Since I doubt the pain or experiences of myself or my brethren will be something that sways or interests you, also realize that the youth would look at such a move by the Church as bigoted and backwards and you would run the risk of pushing even more youth from the pews. Make no mistake that my brethren and myself would not hesitate to capitalize on that opportunity, either. Kids are dying. The stakes are too high for us not to stand up to our foes.
My answers are not flippant. I am concerned more about the 95% that doesn’t seem to get heard when it comes to bullying. Recent death of a Connecticut girl who simply refused to go to a dance tells it all.

No one likes a chronic major disease and often Aids starts at a very young age in males and even with the best medical treatments is not anything anyone would want.

To say it doesn’t matter because gay men are now living to regular old age within 1 or 2 years because of medical treatment is unacceptable.
 
My answers are not flippant. I am concerned more about the 95% that doesn’t seem to get heard when it comes to bullying.

No one likes a chronic major disease and often Aids starts at a very young age in males and even with the best medical treatments is not anything anyone would want.

To say it doesn’t matter because gay men are now living to regular old age within 1 or 2 years is unacceptable.
So you think that anti-hazing movements, the most common anti-bullying movements on college campuses, are directed at gays and lesbians too? Come on now. People target anti-bullying movements at the most common events. Gays & lesbians (as well as suspected gays and lesbians) get bullied more violently than any other group of people in high school, so they receive the most attention in high school to avoid related suicides and murders. Likewise, in college, the most violent form of bullying is hazing, which is why anti-hazing programs are the most prevalent anti-bullying programs in college. Anti-LGBT violence, while still present, is reduced in college and does not usually involve mob culture like it does in high school.

The Day of Silence is a day opposed to murder, period. It has nothing to do with lofting gay people above straight people. It has everything to do with recognizing that anti-gay violence in high schools nationwide is significantly more prevalent than anti-any other group violence in high schools nationwide. You’ll notice that schools with high racial tension also have programs dedicated to ending racial violence as well; is that wrong? Should we all go around and devote anti-bullying money equally to avoid bullying of the attractive popular white male jocks? Money should be devoted proportionately based on the severity of violence included within the bullying as well as the commonness of said bullying.
 
It’s due to fundamental differences in theology.
True.
The difference is due to sexism and conceptions of privileged with being male perceived as being better and privileged which results in biological males who identify as a woman being considered as mentally disturbed for wanting to be treated as women.
I think this is at the root of it. But I also think some men (those who get violent) may feel like their masculinity is challenged by trans women; they’re often misogynists to begin with. Then realizing that here is a person who was born with a male body, but identifies as a woman, can trigger reactions, since it disturbs their world view which basically says that all women would secretly want to be men.

In addition, there’s obviously the thing with a man being attracted to a woman, just to realize she is trans later on. Because, obviously, it’s all about the man, and therefore she is just out to trick him, even though she might not even have shown any interest in the slightest… because he is the center of the world, and someone elses transition can’t be about anything other than him :rolleyes:

(Note: Obviously the majority of men aren’t like this. I’m speaking about the type of man no woman should feel safe around. Sadly these traits may present in some men who are otherwise nice, upon sight of a trans woman.)
My answers are not flippant. I am concerned more about the 95% that doesn’t seem to get heard when it comes to bullying.
I’m sorry, but you’re constructing problems here because of your dislike for the program.

The vast, vast, vast majority of anti-bullying programs have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity at all. They target bullying on the grounds of body type and looks, disability, social status, ethnicity etc etc. Bullying of non-LGBT people is very well covered in anti-bullying programs in most schools.

The groups that often aren’t heard is LGB and T people. Because even though the media may focus on it, schools often don’t. And why? Because of attitudes like you present here. And all too often the media is used to excuse the lack of willingness to combat this kind of bullying: “They’re pop stars, it’s not like it’s difficult being gay these days” :rolleyes: . There’s a reason for all this media coverage; LGBT people are still bullied, made victims of violence, rape and murder, and even thrown out on the streets, because people just don’t seem to care.

What you’re basically saying is that we should ignore bullying against minorities, because they can be covered in general anti-bullying programs. Would you say what you’re saying in this thread if this was a program directed against bullying of an ethnic or religious minority?
Recent death of a Connecticut girl who simply refused to go to a dance tells it all.
I’m sorry, but no matter how unacceptable and heinous such an act is, it is not bullying. You’re mixing completely different phenomena here to justify your stance.

Obviously, any form of violence against a girl because she refused going on a date should be punished harshly, and I sincerely hope that man gets to rot in jail. My emotional reaction is that he should also have certain parts removed, but I realize that such a punishment is not only cruel and unusual, but contrary to Catholic teaching. But anyhow I obviously agree that such crimes need to be fought against, (a certain kind of) men need to learn that women have the right to say no, without fear of retaliation.

But no matter how heinous, that kind of violence is not bullying. It is certainly not an example of “being bullied because you are heterosexual”, like you try to imply. And as I said a few days ago, obviously heterosexuals are bullied, but they aren’t bullied simply for being heterosexual. If you can provide even a single example, it would be the exception to prove the rule. I’ve never heard of one, single case, ever. Heterosexuals being bullied are most often bullied for their social behavior (nerdiness probably being the most common), their social status (cheap clothes, poor parents), handicaps, ethnicity, and for being perceived as gay, or (in the case of boys) effeminate. Therefore, bullying programs which target bullying of LGBT people will also benefit heterosexual students, since they’re just as often being bullied for being gay as those who actually are gay…

The closest thing to what you claim exists, would be the marginalization of bisexuals by gay and lesbian people. Being openly bisexual isn’t easy, since it’s frowned upon by straight people as well as gay people. Obviously with plenty of exceptions in both camps. But still, I have yet to hear of someone actually being bullied by gay people for being bisexual - it’s generally more like being marginalized.
 
My answers are not flippant. I am concerned more about the 95% that doesn’t seem to get heard when it comes to bullying. Recent death of a Connecticut girl who simply refused to go to a dance tells it all.

No one likes a chronic major disease and often Aids starts at a very young age in males and even with the best medical treatments is not anything anyone would want.

To say it doesn’t matter because gay men are now living to regular old age within 1 or 2 years because of medical treatment is unacceptable.
Probably the plurality of people bullied are bullied for being perceived as LGBT.
 
In principle, I see nothing wrong with the DOS. However, it strikes me as something that could be easily hijacked to fit something more than a simple counter-bullying ideology.
Yes.

So the ACLU is not supporting DOS?
 
originally posted** by Rin**
I’m sorry, but no matter how unacceptable and heinous such an act is, it is not bullying. You’re mixing completely different phenomena here to justify your stance.
Heterosexuals being bullied are most often bullied for their social behavior (nerdiness probably being the most common), their social status (cheap clothes, poor parents), handicaps, ethnicity, and for being perceived as gay, or (in the case of boys) effeminate. Therefore, bullying programs which target bullying of LGBT people will also benefit heterosexual students, since they’re just as often being bullied for being gay as those who actually are gay…
You may not see the death of the girl in Connecticut as bullying but it is. She refused to go to a dance and he killed her. What would you call that? It is the highest form of bullying, murder. Heterosexuals are bullied everywhere.
originally posted by Joie de Vivre
Probably the plurality of people bullied are bullied for being perceived as LGBT.
The plurality of people bullied are bullied for being perceived as LGBT. What? Ninety five to ninety eight percent of student are not gay. they are heterosexual.

If it is only about the 3 or 5% and no one else matters, why is that? There is no day for heterosexuals and bullying and I think there should be a combine day where bullying is not tolerated. Gays should be included in that also but not be the total of that day as it is now.

You want this just about gays as if they are the only ones with bullying problems and I understand the anger you feel because it is so rampart but they are not the only ones…
 
You may not see the death of the girl in Connecticut as bullying but it is. She refused to go to a dance and he killed her. What would you call that? It is the highest form of bullying, murder. Heterosexuals are bullied everywhere.
I would call that murder, and not taking no for an answer.

You’re basically making your own definition of bullying here, so you can fit things that are not bullying (like murder - which may indeed be a product of bullying, but murder in itself is not bullying) into it, to support your cause. You’re practically using newspeak.

Lastly, since you seem not to quite see this distinction: No one is claiming heterosexuals are not bullied. No one. What people are saying is that heterosexuals are not bullied simply for being heterosexual. They may be bullied for being attracted to or in a relationship with someone unpopular, or even as revenge for not saying yes to a date, but none of that is because they’re heterosexual.

Give me a news story about a girl who was assaulted by a complete stranger (to her as well as the boyfriend) simply because she was seen holding hands with a man. Or of a man who told his buddies that he was attracted to women, then as a result beat senseless and ended up in hospital. I doubt you’ll find one, and even if you do, it will be the exception to prove the rule - people aren’t assaulted or bullied simply for being heterosexual. It would be as absurd as if a Vatican employee was bullied by his peers for being Catholic…

And again, none of the examples you provide are of bullying. They’re of crimes committed because a man’s ego was hurt. That did not happen because the girl was heterosexual, it happened because she turned the man down. You’re not even pulling at straws here - you’re pulling at thin air.
If it is only about the 3 or 5% and no one else matters, why is that?
  1. While gays make out 3-5% of the general population, they make out a much higher percentage of the bullied population. Then you have all those who are not gay, but bullied for being gay nonetheless. Fighting bullying of gay people benefits everyone.
  2. You keep using this straw man. I have not seen one, single person in this forum claim that “no one else matters”. I have not seen one, single person claiming heterosexuals don’t get bullied - on the contrary. What people however say, which you consistently misinterpret, is that heterosexual people aren’t bullied simply because they’re heterosexual. The claim that they are, which you repeatedly pose, is nothing but absurd, and you have yet to bring any actual examples of this happening. You keep pointing to girls who are killed because of men who can’t take no for an answer, but that is not being bullied because you’re heterosexual, it’s a violent reaction because the girl refused heterosexual relations with the perpetrator. So if we accept it as bullying, it’s actually being bullied for not being heterosexual enough…
Lastly, you keep speaking as if events which focus on bullying of gay people exclude working against bullying in general. This is a false dichotomy, and not grounded in reality. There are numerous programs targeting bullying in general or for other reasons - when I went to school I can remember programs that targeted bullying because of handicaps, because of religion, because of ethnicity, social/behavioral traits, etc etc. But we had no program that even mentioned gay people. So if anything, there’s not a lack of programs that combat bullying in general, but of programs that target bullying of LGB & T individuals specifically.
 
Probably the plurality of people bullied are bullied for being perceived as LGBT.
We all know that there is no shortage of proof that far worse than name calling and bullying is levied against those who oppose (on moral and ethical grounds) same-sex marriage and homosexual acts or promoting homosexuality to minors.
 
We all know that there is no shortage of proof that far worse than name calling and bullying is levied against those who oppose (on moral and ethical grounds) same-sex marriage and homosexual acts or promoting homosexuality to minors.
I am fairly certain that killing someone because of their sexuality is worse than a radical activist’s treatment of those who oppose same-sex marriage. It also happens much more often. There are very few and far between cases of people actually being targeted for their beliefs on same-sex “marriage.” In fact, the Firefox scandal (where he was removed by Silicon, not by the LGBT community) is the only one I can even think of off the top of my head.

There is no equivalence between the extremely rare targeting of opponents of same-sex “marriage” and the very common violent behavior towards gays, lesbians, and especially transgender students. Good, practicing Catholics should agree that violent behavior towards LGBT people is morally wrong and reprehensible, and seek to stop it.

I have personally undergone both anti-gay bullying and namecalling over my beliefs. I can’t even describe to you how much less vicious those who attack me for my beliefs are than those who used to bully me for my sexuality. I’d much, MUCH rather someone falsely call me an “idiot” for my Catholic beliefs than fear for my life because people are threatening me over an attraction to women.
 
We all know that there is no shortage of proof that far worse than name calling and bullying is levied against those who oppose (on moral and ethical grounds) same-sex marriage and homosexual acts or promoting homosexuality to minors.
“Far worse than name calling and bullying”

“Far worse than” suggests that a comparison is being made to something else. What else are you comparing it to? Surely you did not mean to suggest that the worst thing that happens to suspected or actual LGBT individuals is name calling and bullying.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top