General questions from an atheist

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PureGrace

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Hello people.

An atheist posted the following challenge for me to answer on the academic boards:

**“We all have free will. Free will is God given.”

Did you choose to be born? No? Did you “free will” yourself into existance?

The answer pretty much has to be no. Thus, free will is either non-existant, or only
existant after you are born. OR maybe even like after you’re 3. (I thought it an
interesting point)

Also, this is for my own curiosity, not a personal attack on your religion. Why would god
give us free will and make us all different from one another if he, through the good book,
wants us to all be similar enough ie through not sinning?

Lastly, How do you, personally answer the question (I know it doesnt sound serious but
it is) “Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god couldn’t eat it?”

I’m hoping you can answer these questions for me, as I am too lazy and you seem like
the kind of person who would have a good answer which would represent and opinion
which is part of the christian community.**

Someone replied with this :

**Alright well, those are some pretty rough questions that I sure can’t answer, but I can
however pose a few answers to your final conundrum.

God could indeed microwave said burrioto until he could not eat it, and then ‘he’ would,
since he is omnipotent he can. To be God entitles the ability to defy logic as we see it.
Perhaps you also are referring to some Platonic quote modified by the Simpsons I
believe (An unstoppable force hitting an immovable object)? But the basic premise still
holds true. Since he CAN do everything he can make somehting impossble yet possible
at the same time.

In conclusion I pose a more simple answer; sure, he will heat it up SO HOT that not even
he cant eat it, then simply wait for it to cool and eat it! BAM! GG**

And the original poster replied back:

**could god cause the laws of thermodynamics to alter so as not to allow it cool 😛

so basically god is just one giant contradiction wrapped up with the ability to defy/define
what is possible and what is not? So really there’s no point in me arguing my point for
atheism ever again. Skeptic Agnostic it is.**

HOW TO RESPOND???
 
Hi PureGrace,
I’ve had these discussions with a dear friend who is a “Skeptic Agnostic.” The discussions tend to be circular. They want their logic to be God’s logic. They want the rules that apply to them to apply to God. I have discovered only one common thread in all my years of discussions with my friend and reading his magazines and skeptic websites. The idea of eternity is very frightening to them.

I know I am on thin ice by making that statement because I have been confronted by atheists who will tell me, “eternity isn’t frightening because it doesn’t exist.” On occasion I have answered back that their statement proves the fear. Mostly, I just let it go.

They really want God to be finite. Hence being atheist. At it’s very core being atheist is about being finite. There must be a beginning, middle, and an end, for their logic to work.

As to the question about “free-willing ourselves into existence.” I have found that for many it is because they see a lack of uniqueness in themselves that they cannot fathom their existence. The idea that they are a perfect gift from God is completely foreign, at best, and at worst, seems arrogant on the part of we who believe it.

I wish you luck. I have been having these same discussions with my friend for 20 years. (We started them around age 15.) If nothing else, maybe THAT will prove eternity to him!
 
Hello person,

On free will…I would say free will only exists after you are born. Agewise…the age of reason (6 or 7) I guess. ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ226.HTM

On the burrito question…I got a good chuckle. I am a convert (former Athiest, Agnostic and Christian Convert, depending on dates in time), but I never asked anyone that question when I was an athiest.

The answer is *reductio ad absurdum, *which when translated to English is just as it sounds, absurd.

A good example is a paradox I read about in *Paradoxes and Other Essays *by Willard Van Orman Quine (former Philosophy professor emeritus at Harvard).

There is a town with a barber who shaves all those men and only those men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave himself?

The town simply doesn’t exist. Neither does God’s desire for a burrito that is too hot for him to eat. 😃

God bless,

Robert
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PureGrace:
Hello people.

An atheist posted the following challenge for me to answer on the academic boards:

"We all have free will. Free will is God given."

Did you choose to be born? No? Did you “free will” yourself into existance?

**The answer pretty much has to be no. Thus, free will is either non-existant, or only **
**existant after you are born. OR maybe even like after you’re 3. (I thought it an **
interesting point)

**Also, this is for my own curiosity, not a personal attack on your religion. Why would god **
**give us free will and make us all different from one another if he, through the good book, **
wants us to all be similar enough ie through not sinning?

**Lastly, How do you, personally answer the question (I know it doesnt sound serious but **
it is) "Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god couldn’t eat it?"

**I’m hoping you can answer these questions for me, as I am too lazy and you seem like **
**the kind of person who would have a good answer which would represent and opinion **
which is part of the christian community.

Someone replied with this :

**Alright well, those are some pretty rough questions that I sure can’t answer, but I can **
**however pose a few answers to your final conundrum. **

**God could indeed microwave said burrioto until he could not eat it, and then ‘he’ would, **
**since he is omnipotent he can. To be God entitles the ability to defy logic as we see it. **
**Perhaps you also are referring to some Platonic quote modified by the Simpsons I **
**believe (An unstoppable force hitting an immovable object)? But the basic premise still **
**holds true. Since he CAN do everything he can make somehting impossble yet possible **
**at the same time. **

**In conclusion I pose a more simple answer; sure, he will heat it up SO HOT that not even **
he cant eat it, then simply wait for it to cool and eat it! BAM! GG

And the original poster replied back:

could god cause the laws of thermodynamics to alter so as not to allow it cool 😛

**so basically god is just one giant contradiction wrapped up with the ability to defy/define **
**what is possible and what is not? So really there’s no point in me arguing my point for **
atheism ever again. Skeptic Agnostic it is.

HOW TO RESPOND???
Click to expand...
 
First off, this poster is supposing a logical fallacy in the beginning. Existence is logically prior to free will, as free will needs existence, but existence does not need free will. To pose such a question is fruitless, since first God must make something exist in order for there to be free will, even if they “come into being” at the same instant. It’s all about logical priority, not necessarily a gap in time. With that in mind, there’s nothing of substance in that question.

The second issue is faulty because it presumes that sin equals “difference”, and that sinless equals “similar”, or rather homogenous. While it’s true that those who don’t sin share a lack of sin in common, and those that do sin share sin in common, it’s incorrect to presume that there is uniformity beyond that one trait. It is not a contradiction to say that God does not desire us to sin, especially since sin is our own destruction; God did not make us to perish. Sin isn’t just “being bad”, it’s spiritual death, and God is the God of Life. In fact, realistically speaking, all things that are dead are the same, whereas those that are alive can be unique. It’s because God wishes diversity that He wishes us to not sin, because, to paraphrase Chesterton “Dead things drift, it takes a living thing to swim.” Drifting things go in the same direction down a river, living things can swim at a multitude of angles, even upstream!

The microwave question is faulty because it confuses positive and negative qualities. Positive qualities are “something”, negative qualities are simply ways to compare two different things. In other words, a positive quality is “I’m 5’6"”, a negative quality is “I’m two inches shorter than 5’8"”. The error in this case is that the same thing is being compared to itself, namely God’s power to God’s power. Since God’s power is numerically one, meaning He has only the power of Will, as opposed to the power to build a ladder, and the power to climb it, you can’t compare it negatively to itself. If it were a human, you could say that my power to build a ladder is greater than my power to climb it, for example if I’m scared of heights or don’t have legs. With God, however, His Will is Infinite, and can’t be compared negatively to itself, so you can’t say “God can make a burritto so hot that He can’t eat it” since it’s by the same power that God makes (Will) and that He eats (Will). You have to say “God can make an infinitely hot burritto, and God can eat an infinitely hot burritto.” No contradiction whatsoever.

Unfortunately most people just respond in the manner the other poster did, which just opens them to ridicule and the accusation that God is contradictory. Thankfully we have Thomistic thinking to combat such atheistic questions 😛

Peace and God bless!
 
I never really got this deep into thinking about this before, because I guess I just accept things like this when my faith in God over rides any of these doubts…but, I always think that these things are irrelevent, because my thoughts are that God CAN do anything, but He also has a nature. In His nature there are things He won’t do. He could do things that are evil, but it is not God’s nature. Everything God does, is in His nature and in His plan. And because God CAN do anything, that means that He only does what is in His plan and not what we plan. Just as it is in His plan for us to have free will. He COULD use us like puppets and make us all do as He wants us to do, but He gave us free will, because that is His plan for us.

I’m not sure if heating up a burrito in a microwave too hot for even Him to eat would be in His plan, and since God doesn’t make mistakes, is perfect in every way, He wouldn’t make anything TOO hot since He knows just the right temperature. 😃
 
I was always under the impression that free will meant that we (made in the image of God) could intellectually decide to be with God or to be without him.

What always bothered me was the idea that if I did NOT want to follow the rules set upon man, than I would go to hell. What sort of free will is that… it’s like one is forced to be a Christian or else you fry. Where is the free will in that?

I Believe in God, I believe in his Son and the Holy Spirit. But believing isn’t good enough is it? We have to turn over our will. I think it was saint Paul that said we would either be a slave to God or a slave to sin… Paraphrasing of course.
 
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Jonah:
I was always under the impression that free will meant that we (made in the image of God) could intellectually decide to be with God or to be without him.

What always bothered me was the idea that if I did NOT want to follow the rules set upon man, than I would go to hell. What sort of free will is that… it’s like one is forced to be a Christian or else you fry. Where is the free will in that?

I Believe in God, I believe in his Son and the Holy Spirit. But believing isn’t good enough is it? We have to turn over our will. I think it was saint Paul that said we would either be a slave to God or a slave to sin… Paraphrasing of course.
Click to expand...
God created us to join him in Heaven but he gave us free will to decide if we want to choose to love him and join him there or to reject his love and go to Hell. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. People who don’t like that are those selfish people who want God to bend to their will.
 
While I am personally fond of: God could microwave a burrito so hot He could not eat it; Then he could eat it; And if I can’t wrap my puny, non-omniscient brain around that, that’s a limit on me, not on God, consider too:
  • Nothing is impossible for God
  • A burrito so hot God could not eat it is a paradox; a non-thing; a nothing
  • *Nothing *is impossible for God
tee
 
“We all have free will. Free will is God given.” Did you choose to be born? No? Did you “free will” yourself into existance?

We all have free will, obatined at the point of our creation. Our difference have nothing to do with free will, nor our ability to excersie it.

“Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god couldn’t eat it?”

That is a ridiculous argument not really worthy of comment; God can do anything but he need not prove his power by responding to ridiculous challenges.

More importantly for the atheist, if there is no God then why would nay of these questions matter tot eh atheist? I suspect that when an “atheist” begins asking such questions or begins to challenge the faith of believers that it is an indication that the “atheist” is really trying to support an unsupportable position - that God does not exist. For a “true” atheist such questions are irrelevant!
 
God created us to join him in Heaven but he gave us free will to decide if we want to choose to love him and join him there or to reject his love and go to Hell. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. People who don’t like that are those selfish people who want God to bend to their will.
Click to expand...
Scripture says that God does not want anyone to parish, thus He sent His only Son. IF God who is all knowing does not want us to parish then why did He create us if we were going to sin and lose our hope or our chance of being in heaven with Him. That doesn’t sound like free will to me. It sound more like “Do what I say or else.”

I remember taking catechism classes as a young girl. I was taught that God wants us to love him and be with him because we love Him, but if we are afraid to go to Hell and are good because of that fear then He would take us that way too.

I know that God is real in my life. I am a sinful woman and I don’t know if I’m going to heaven… I love God, but not with a perfect will, thus, my heart becomes resentful towards the religious babble
 
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Jonah:
Scripture says that God does not want anyone to parish, thus He sent His only Son. IF God who is all knowing does not want us to parish then why did He create us if we were going to sin and lose our hope or our chance of being in heaven with Him. That doesn’t sound like free will to me. It sound more like “Do what I say or else.”
Click to expand...
You are asking why God gave us the ability to reject Him. Why did he give us free will if it only opened up the door to our rejection of Him. This is a good question.

Before us God created animals. They were beautiful and wonderful creations, but one gets the sense that God realized there could be more. He wanted to create something in His own image. He wanted His own children. In order to make us like Him, he had to give us intellect and will even at the risk that we would use our own will to reject Him.
 
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tee_eff_em:
While I am personally fond of: God could microwave a burrito so hot He could not eat it; Then he could eat it; And if I can’t wrap my puny, non-omniscient brain around that, that’s a limit on me, not on God, consider too:
  • Nothing is impossible for God
  • A burrito so hot God could not eat it is a paradox; a non-thing; a nothing
  • *Nothing *is impossible for God
tee
Click to expand...
Things God cannot do:
  1. Sin
  2. Lie
 
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Jonah:
Scripture says that God does not want anyone to parish, thus He sent His only Son. IF God who is all knowing does not want us to parish then why did He create us if we were going to sin and lose our hope or our chance of being in heaven with Him. That doesn’t sound like free will to me. It sound more like “Do what I say or else.”

I remember taking catechism classes as a young girl. I was taught that God wants us to love him and be with him because we love Him, but if we are afraid to go to Hell and are good because of that fear then He would take us that way too.

I know that God is real in my life. I am a sinful woman and I don’t know if I’m going to heaven… I love God, but not with a perfect will, thus, my heart becomes resentful towards the religious babble
Click to expand...
God created us and loves us and wants only the best for us. God gave us free will. We can accfept or reject God, either way he loves us - unconditional love. His gift to us is his love and our free will. Only our free will can cause us to parish - God’s love and garce gives us infinitely more opportunties to be with Him eternally.
 
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PureGrace:
**Lastly, How do you, personally answer the question (I know it doesnt sound serious but **
it is) "Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god couldn’t eat it?"

HOW TO RESPOND???
Click to expand...
Does existence define what God is? Or does God define what existence is?

What exists is not greater then God, it is less. Therefore the objects within it cannot define God.

Therefore, any object that is apparently outside the realm of God is by definition outside of existence.

Sorry, but the burrito cannot exist.
 
Your questions are a smokescreen to avoid the real question:
Should you believe in God?

Not only should you believe in Him, you should follow whatever
He says. The Devil believes in Him, believing is not enough.
You have been born into a dangerous world that is passing away.
If your mother tells you not to run in front of a car, what do you do?
You may believe in your mother but it is not enough, you must
listen to her.

God has dangerously given us the free will to “run in front of a car”.
But we aren’t afraid, because we made the free choice not to do it.

Don’t waste any more time asking why you should believe in
God. There are Bibles everywhere in every language, you have
no excuse not to read one. That He exists, is a fact. Now,
hurry, find out what He wants from you, before it’s too late.

Notice Jesus didn’t go to all the hospitals and cemeteries to heal
everyone in sight. He healed the ones who came to Him and
asked for healing. You must go to Jesus yourself in prayer, and admit that you are one of the ones He gave His life for. Jesus is the key to understanding God. He told His disciples: if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

God be with you…
 
When I first saw this thread I was tempted to go and read other post, however, I fought off this temptation and what I am about to write are my own thoughts. If what I do write is similar to someone else’s thoughts then I off my sincere condolences to that person who is thinking the same way I am (I wouldn’t wish that on anyone).

As to your first question on free will, I think the question has as its roots the age old question, “Which came first the chicken or the egg?” The answer of ccoarse is the egg, but the egg was the metrix for the chicken therefore there is an innate dichotomy between the two.

As for Free Will itself. When you consider the nature of Free Will this is the power or ability to choose to act according to one’s nature or go against it. If we act according to our true nature then we move towards being truely human. If not then we choose to act in a manner that is less human.

Even if there wasn’t the Divine Revelation as found in Scripture I think we still have the intellectual capacity to come to this knowledge. This brings us to the question about what makes us human? Reason alone should allow us to come to the understanding that we are creatures (created beings - we do have mothers and fathers after all) who have a physical existence and we have an intellengence we can know things outside of ourselves either immediatelly (the faculty of the of our intellect) or through our sense experience (the power of reason).

To be truely human is to make the choices (Free Will) that will bring into the proper balance our physical and intellectual being thus leading us to move to being truely human or to choose in a way that will disrupt this balance.

So the proper use of our free will doesnot create a situation of living a life of mindless, unreasonable uniformity, rather it allows us to share in the participation of the fullness of our human nature(in other words our Free Will allows us to choose or to reject the Natural Law.)

As for the burrito.Homerian logic would dictate that if God was to make a burrito so hot that she could not eat it, then in her wisdom and power she would create a fan to cool it off.

Along more Thomastic lines, to use the term about eating implys a physical act. Apart from the Incarnation, God is pure spirit therefore the concept of His eating something is unreasonable and really shouldn’t be used in an intellectual inquiry. Remember the finite cannot grasp the infinite and therefore were can only touch on our understanding of God using human categories of speach that is rooted in anthropromorphisms. Still, our categories which may reflect things we hold to be illogical ( do not forget logic is a human perception) they can never be truely unreasonable. To subject the infinate to the limitations of the finite is wholely unreasonable.

Also, God has His own limitations in His ability to create, that is a sophomoric way of saying God cannot go against His own Self. For example, God cannot create a human who has no free will. This would be a contradiction and in God there is no contradictions. Reason, as well as Scripture, brings us to this truth.
 
Also, this is for my own curiosity, not a personal attack on your religion. Why would god
give us free will and make us all different from one another if he, through the good book,
wants us to all be similar enough ie through not sinning?
Click to expand...
**Well, ** Free will does not in itself make people different, God also made each and every person and knew them before they were born. He made each person unique and in his image and likeness. Will is only entirely free when it is free from sin and acting constistantly from the wellspring of our being as our true self as we were created to know and to love and to serve God.
 
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