Thanks, Andrew. My friend keeps bringing up the point that in 3000 years only one nation came out of the desert and it is the Muslims. You mentioned they might not be the only nation.
I have watched Muslims put their head down on desks and their hands over their ears in religion 101 classes on this point while moaning. As I said, I haven’t read the Koran – but it is clear to me that they are taught that the bible is in error; and that Ishmael, not Isaac, went up onto mount moriah to be sacrificed. etc.
It is impossible to deny, though, archaeologically that the Israelites were a nation. The Cannanites too, and many others. From Isaac was born Esau, and from Esau came the nation of Edom. Edom is to the southeast of the promised land given to Isaac – and there is evidence of their existence. Regarding Israel: There are stones of foreign kings boasting about their fights with “the house of David”; and much more.
When confronted with archaeology, and cross references in scripture that Mohommad apparently didn’t understand the meaning of – many Moslems become bewildered – they simply have no answer. If Mohommad didn’t correct it – and it isn’t wrong; how can it possibly corroborate something he did attempt to “correct”? Much of their apologetic falls apart quickly when confronted with
questions supported by the unity of scripture.
Are you sure you read that Joseph was put under the leadership of the tribe of Ishmael OR in other words, a nation of Islam (Muslims)? Hagar was Egyptian, but what does that mean for the religion of Egypt as a whole, would they have adopted Ishaemel’s God and ways? I don’t think Ishmael would have had that much influence.
Ishmael’s children bought Joseph from his brothers as a slave; he resold him in Egypt. The bible says of Joseph that he was sold to
Ishmaelites;
eg: found around Genesis 37:25; Both the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures agree on this point; Therefore I am sure since even Hebrew and Christian when enemies agree that it happened.
Hagar, recall, was an Egyptian. So there is a partial overlap between Egypt and Ishmael. but as is says in scriptures, Ishmael was to be an *** of a man – with his face turned against
everyone; It was his habit from the beginning to deny his family; I hardly find it surprising that Mohommad chose to do the same, regardless of where he really came from.
In Egypt, Joseph did not remain a race set apart; He married several Egyptian Priestesses according to scripture. As such, Even the nation of Israel has a partial heritage from Egypt – for many Egyptians, slaves and non, Joined the Israelites on their way to the promised land; Although, I would caution you, the word “slavery” in scripture does not mean what it does here in the United States. Indentured servants is far closer to the truth. In the Greek, the word for “slave” is the same as the word for “deacon”.
Nor was it uncommon for Israelites to call upon their relatives in Egypt. Even Jesus, it is said, went there to escape Herod. Egypt wasn’t totally unfriendly toward Israelites.
There was no such religion as Islam until Mohammed. I think there were offshoots of some sort of Abrahamic religion that would have gone with Hagar and Ishmael into an Ishmael tribe or nation, seems logical. But is wasn’t Islam as we know it today.
I agree. BUT, more realistically I tend to think Mohammed had motive to falisify history. He wanted to take full advantage of political strife/corruption/greed that had rulership of portions of the Catholic Church in his day; In order to do that, he needed to re-invent – some of history.
eg: The bible didn’t give him that legitimacy which he needed to rally troops, and so he changed it just enough to give himself that legitimacy; Or alternately, I don’t think he really knew his own family history back very far and inserted vague notions in place of solid traditions. He probably didn’t expect that there was evidence to prove him wrong still to be found in the world.
That is why I don’t get what my friend is trying. Any more ideas Andrew or anyone? Thank you and God Bless You!
Brian, make him prove his claims based on Archaeological evidence that can be found. He will either have to deny all of Archaeology, or he will have to face the facts about the accuracy of the bible in
general terms.
A nation the size of Ishmael’s had to leave evidence BOTH of its existence and its beliefs. If he does not show them clearly, you have to tell him that you can’t believe him until he does. The harder he tries, the more he will have to face the truth.
I have observed that some Moslem’s approach is more of a charismatic and pride vein; they are more interested in God’s gift to them of your attention toward whatever glitters (eg: prayer beads, ?), than to boring study. We are the people that invented this or that or the other thing.
At School: I noticed that Nothing is more devastating to them than to be faced with an adult Moslem who sets traps for any kind of cheating they attempted in class. He wouldn’t turn them in – nor tell them how he caught them, but their failure would be extremely sobering to them.
I think you will need to do the same, if you wish your friendship to mature.
