Getting my head around "expiation"

[GoodME]

Paul and the Gospel of John reference Christ as an “expiation” for our sins. That he is a sacrificial offering for our sins to God. That he is “dying in my place” on the Cross.

I sure have a hrad time getting a good handle on this, and would like other posters thoughts on this.

I agree that the most taht we people could possibly give for our Faiths is our lives. Both in the sense of longevity lived in service to the Church up to death, but also in the conviction that many of the martyrs faced in their untimely deaths, where their “quality” (for want of a better word) exceeded their “quantity”.

Why does God need a “Sacrificial Lamb” from us? THis alomost has an “eye for an eye” kind of favor to it to me: I would think God would be above that sort of thing.

My Faith and Christology is primarily summed up as Jesus being the teacher and the example of a life lived in total Faith, in total obedience, and in total committment to the will of the Father. He lived our lives, in our bodies, celebrated our joys, felt our pain and died our death - to be risen and show us the way to everlasting life. He is teacher and friend, mentor and guide, champion and example. He showed what was possible within our human bodies and our human limitations, and demonstrated to the Father, in a way, the we were “worth Saving” or “worth Sanctifying”.

Just thinking aloud here, but I would like an “informed” or “illuminated” development of this topic, if there is one. I just feel like I might be missing something important here.

If there needed to be Sacrifice like this, Jesus would have been the most likely candidate, because among us, he the least deserving of this fate. How does What does this “sacrifice” do?

Let me know what you think.

 

[Dan-Man916]

We have to remember God’s infinite justice and God’s infinite mercy.
I think it is the concept of justice that may be what you are grappling with.

If i throw a baseball through someone else’s window, Justice demands that i make payment to replace that window.
If the person who’s window I broke forgives me and tells me that i don’t have to repay for the window, they have shown mercy in forgiving my debt (to replace the window).

Now, if we look at sin in relation to God. God is all perfect and all mighty. Sin is an offense against God becuase it is an affront to his infinite perfection.
How can we make amends for this? Now, God’s perfection isn’t hurt or destroyed like the window, but Justice demands that the sin be paid for.

We cannot make amends to the divine because we are not divine.
This is why Christ sacrificed his life. CHrist is both divine and human A) to satisfy the demand for Justice on the divine level (something we could not do), and B) in doing so, allowed for humans to obtain mercy for their sins because of Christ’s substitutional Sacrifice.

Jesus satisfied the divine demand for Justice so that God could give us mercy by pardoning our sin. And ebcause Jesus is both Human and Divine, he was the only One who could do this.

This is all a mystery deeply rooted in the Incarnation.

 

[GoodME]

This is all a mystery deeply rooted in the Incarnation.

And for now, there it will remain for me. Thanks for your response, though.

I tell a version of the baseball story when discussing the temporal effects of sin. My story is: Suppose I steal a car. I then recognize the sinfulness of this act, and the injustice and offense it has created - depriving the rightful owner of the car from using the car. I first ask for forgiveness from the car owner, who may grant it if he is merciful and believes in “forgive us our tespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”. I also seek forgiveness from God, who sees my sorrow and guilt - given to me perhaps by actual graces acting on the soul - and recognizing my willingness to repent.

The problem here - I still have the car. If the owner lets me keep it because I am poor and he is a billionaire, then fine. But I need to give the car back to repair the injustice.

This is the temporal effect of my sin.

So what I think I hear you saying is something along the lines that Jesus is giving the car back to God. And it must be a fine car indeed, worthy of God.

Fair enough, but I still have difficulty with it.

Is it fair to say that the Spiritual aspects of sin are taught to be a mystery by the Church, and that we must work to deal with the temporal effects of our sin? I mean, it is the teaching that the sin remains as long as the temporal effect remains, isn’t it?

Thanks again for your reply. I will continue to wrestle a little with this. Maybe a visit to the Catechism would help.

 

[threej_lc]

The previous post was correct in that God created the universe, the laws of physics and ethics, as a cause-and-effect creation. All actions have consequences. All who are responsible for actions are responsible for their consequences, and are thus responsible for their reparation in order to be justified in culpability.

Because we are the ones owing reparation to God after the fall, it was his choice to choose how we are redeemed (if at all). He chose the method of sacrifice, at first through the firstborn lamb, and then, to his only son, the final firsborn lamb. Being God, his sacrifice was powerful enough to last through all of eternity.

So why did God choose to make the way of redemption be sacrafice? Because God is love. And through the sacrafice of his son, he was able to show his ultimate nature of loving Father. That is what love does, it seeks to express itself. Jesus has to sacrifice himself to redeem us, and chose to do it this way because he is love, this is the ultimate act showing his love, and we are brought closer to the divine love through it then we ever were even before the fall.

“Oh sweet sin of Adam.”

Josh

 

[threej_lc]

Okay… seems I was misunderstanding the question. Possibly I still am.

There is a difference between redemption and justification. That is, there is a difference between forgiveness and repayment.

Sure, I can forgive my dog for digging in my flower garden. But I’m not gonna let him back into my house until he takes a bath. The bath is a painful consequence of his action that he must atone to, without any regards to whether I’ve forgiven him for eating all my potatoes or not.

In this case, I am God the Father. The dog is humanity. My kid boy, the one who said, “Oh dad, he’s just a puppy. Don’t take him to the pound! I’ll clean up the garden for you. I’ll take care of poochie.” Is Jesus. He is the one that earns my forgiveness for the dog. But the dog still’s gotta take the bath!

Josh

 

[GoodME]

threej_lc:

Okay… seems I was misunderstanding the question. Possibly I still am.

There is a difference between redemption and justification. That is, there is a difference between forgiveness and repayment.

Sure, I can forgive my dog for digging in my flower garden. But I’m not gonna let him back into my house until he takes a bath. The bath is a painful consequence of his action that he must atone to, without any regards to whether I’ve forgiven him for eating all my potatoes or not.

In this case, I am God the Father. The dog is humanity. My kid boy, the one who said, “Oh dad, he’s just a puppy. Don’t take him to the pound! I’ll clean up the garden for you. I’ll take care of poochie.” Is Jesus. He is the one that earns my forgiveness for the dog. But the dog still’s gotta take the bath!

Josh

This is actually kind of clever. Thanks.

So, in my original post when I communicated the thought that since Jesus was fully human and fully divine, and in His fully humanness, he showed us what was possible, he was, in a way, the “expiation” in that He was saying to the Father - look, they are worth Saving. They can do it.

This has to do also with my sense of “justification” versus “sanctification”.

I am a “visual” person, not a “textual” one. So ths ends up looking like a big “flowchart” or something in my head, in a way. I was having difficulty fitting the “expiation” piece of the puzzle.

Again, I think your analogy above is interesting.

 

[jeffreedy789]

i would mention a couple ideas to help you in your journey toward trying to come to terms with something as deep as expiation.

one, i think it might be a good analogy, but a bit misleading, to think of Jesus as the one who wants us saved, and God the Father as the mean old man who wants to send us to hell. John 3:16, for one thing, makes it clear that God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life’. God in His entirety, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, loves us and desires us to be saved. so i say again, the analogy is helpful in ways, but be sure not to take it too far. the ‘dad’ in the story loves the poochie, too.

two - it might help to understand another part of john chapter 3. it says that we were all condemned to hell, that the whole world, due to our rebellion and sinfulness, are deserving of death - eternal, spiritual death - separation from God forever. we deserve to go there, due to our sin. God can’t just say ‘fuggetaboutit…’ because He’s perfectly just. so, Jesus died and took that punishment upon Himself in our place, so that justice is served, but mercy is available.

does that help any?

 

[GoodME]

jeffreedy789:

i would mention a couple ideas to help you in your journey toward trying to come to terms with something as deep as expiation.

one, i think it might be a good analogy, but a bit misleading, to think of Jesus as the one who wants us saved, and God the Father as the mean old man who wants to send us to hell.

Amen to this. I don’t see God as being “vengeful”, but your “perfect justice” comment makes a lot of sense. We can’t just be “let off the hook”. So it would take the greatest among us to act as the least and “take one for the team” to put it right.

two - it might help to understand another part of john chapter 3. it says that we were all condemned to hell, that the whole world, due to our rebellion and sinfulness, are deserving of death - eternal, spiritual death - separation from God forever. we deserve to go there, due to our sin. God can’t just say ‘fuggetaboutit…’ because He’s perfectly just. so, Jesus died and took that punishment upon Himself in our place, so that justice is served, but mercy is available.

does that help any?

Yes. Thanks.

I will reflect some on the “perfect justice” comment.

I am trying to get this in my head so that I can teach it and talk about it from a different picture than just “Paul said it and John said it”.

 

[jeffreedy789]

ah, you’re going to TEACH this. well, in that case, i would highly recommend you read (and use portions of it in your teaching) a fantastic little book called ‘The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe’ by my fav writer of all time, cs lewis. you’ve probably heard of him and the book. it fleshes out the idea of expiation in a way that even the smallest child can follow. which makes it more likely that even i might be able to make sense of it.

God bless.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello goodme,

God gave His word that if man sined, he would certianly die. God cannot lie. Man sinned and therefore man must die to fulfill what God had said. Jesus is our Saviour. Jesus dies in our place to fulfill God’s Word that man would die if he sinned. The only path, other than death, is life through the blood of the Lamb.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[GoodME]

Steven Merten:

God gave His word that if man sined, he would certianly die. God cannot lie. Man sinned and therefore man must die to fulfill what God had said. Jesus is our Saviour. Jesus dies in our place to fulfill God’s Word that man would die if he sinned. The only path, other than death, is life through the blood of the Lamb.

This is the kind of explanation that I find problematic. Thanks for the example.

I was with you up until the underlined sentence, which is a non-causal statement. You are saying that Jesus’s death is a valid substitute for something that I should do. Why?

Suppose a burglar is coming up for sentencing after a trial. The jury is weighing the evidence and decides that the burglar should get 2 years in prison for the crime. Would we then allow the brother or the neighbor of the burglar to step forward and serve that sentence? Would the demands of justice be satisfied by allowing someone else to stand in for the punishment of the burglar?

I still fall back to the thought that Jesus exemplified and lived the perfect life that we are capable, given the shackles of our humanity. God humbled Himself to take on the “shell” of His creation to show us how it is done. Including dying our death, if need be, rather than compromising Faith. We recognize glimpses of this perfection in the Saints, who came as close as anyone we recognize to achieving this perfect level of Faith and obedience, often unto their un-timely deaths at the hands of oppressors.

By living this perfect life in our “shell” and typical (and atypical, at times) of our existence, He demonstrated that we were “Savable” or “Sanctifiable”.

Thus, the expiation is tied up in the life lived and the obedience demonstrated that said that we as a race of people were worth a second look - unlike the flood, for example, where God maybe thought that only a select few were worth saving.

So, I guess I am saying I am not a Luther “snowy field”, “covered by the blood” kind of guy. We must be “cleaned” and sanctified by our life choices, or by our time in purgatory. The death of Jesus does not “whitewash” our souls, so that they may become acceptable to God. In order to be acceptable, we have to be ACTUALLY pure, not APPARENTLY pure. The way we become ACTUALLY pure is in living the life as exemplified by Christ.

I know that this is a mystery really; like I said, I thought this would be a good place to try to get my head around it and get some (name removed by moderator)uts from some other people.

Don’t worry - I will try not to go off the “deep end” here.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Goodme,

You focus on punishments. Can you see any good in punishments? America has punishments for those who rape, murder and steal. Is this a bad thing? The goal in punishments is to guide people to do good and not evil. This is a good thing.

I think that, to a person burning in hell, the fires and torcher will be the least of their regrets. They will look upon those in heaven with God and say to themselves why did I not do as Jesus told me to do so I could be with God.

The whole bible is constructed around loving God with all your heart. The way we love God is through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God. Love for God is the fruit of the Kingdom. Will there be any starving people to feed in heaven? Will you have the opportunity to not steal in heaven out of love for God? The treasure of free willed love for God in your heart is produced on earth and it is your treasure in heaven.

The theif on the cross next to Christ is in heaven and Mother Theresa is, no doubt, in heaven (not yet cannonized). One hundred trillion years into eternal life, will not the thief regret that he dose not have the great abundance of free willed gifts of love for God that Mother Theresa accumulated while in the state of free willed man? The theif will have suffered no fires of Gehenna but he will still regret not buying “the pearl of great value” through free willed acts of obedience on earth that Mother Theresa eternally possesses.

Whether your gift is a last minuet full regret that you would have obeyed God all your life if you could do it over or a full abundance of life long gifts of love for God, it is this love that the Kingdom of God is constructed with. There will be no hateful or non productive hearts used to build the Kingdom of God. Love for God is the treasure that God sent His only Son to die for our sins to retrieve. Jesus threats of eternal damnation is to guide us to repentance to love and obey God.

If it is easier for you to think of failure to love God through obedience as sending you to hell, then obey God for this reason. If you can comprehend the tremendous value in God’s heart of gifts of obedient love for God then this is a better route to eternal life.

NAB LUKE 12:31

"Instead, seek his kingdom, and these other things will be given you besides. Do not be afraid any longer, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your belongings and give alms. Provide money bags for yourselves that do not wear out, an inexhaustible treasure in heaven that no thief can reach nor moth destroy. For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be."NAB MATTHEW 13:44

“The reign of God is like a buried treasure which a man found in a field. He hid it again, and rejoicing at his find went and sold all he had and bought that field. Or again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant’s search for fine pearls. When he found one really valuable pearl, he went back and put up for sale all that he had and bought it.” NAB MATTHEW 13:47 Parable of the Net

"The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. "Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[GoodME]

Steven Merten:

Hello Goodme,

You focus on punishments. Can you see any good in punishments? America has punishments for those who rape, murder and steal. Is this a bad thing? The goal in punishments is to guide people to do good and not evil. This is a good thing.

I just got through with a post on the temporal effects of sin, which are largely ignored in Protestant Faith practice.

This is not about that.

The focus is on Paul’s and John’s use of the word “expiation”. I like the “perfect justice” comment from earlier.

The shorthand of temporal effects of sin is: I steal your car. It is a sin, because I have deprived you of what is rightly yours. Suppose that I recognize this injustice and that recognition cuases me to feel guilt and shame. So I apologize to you and God, and ask God’s forgiveness. And I am forgiven becuase Jesus died on the Cross for that sin.

But, whoa, stop the presses. I still have your car. The injustice still exists. And that has to be dealt with. By me.

So, is this a “work” that “completes the atonement of Christ”?

Many Protestant Faith practices completely ignore, or are ill-equipped to deal with the temporal aspects of sin.

You mentioned prison as a deterrent. Interesting that you did not mention it as “restitution” - the removal of oneself from society for a time, in order to allow the temporal effects of the sin to be dealt with and healed. This would demand that the one who does the crime also does the time.

Thus, dealing with the temporal effects of sin are the realm of man.

The “expiation” is beginning to make sense to me in terms of Jesus showing God that His creation in people were capable of sanctification, if stripped of their sin.