Giving an atheist pause?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GloriousOrder
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GloriousOrder

Guest
Dear friends :),

I am having a very frustrating time speaking to an atheist friend of mine. The poor fellow took Sociology 101 in university, and is extremely full of himself. He is not at all very happy, and tries to immerse himself in promiscuous sex and alcohol as much as he can. I am absolutely convinced that he does these things because of a lack of belief in God. His arrogance and pride at being a “logical” and “scientific” mind, always thinking he disproves Christianity, is really overwhelming. I do say to him all I’ve said here, and it is in the spirit of charity; I want to help God in this man’s conversion, but he is very obstinate.

My friend says that the Gospels are not to be trusted as the revealed word of God because of their ancient quality (and thus unreliability). He believes that the Holy Scriptures have been changed and shaped to fit the times. When I point out the fact that the Gospel writers seem to attack their very own character and humiliate themselves (thus making them somewhat trustworthy), he says it’s just “affected modesty”. He believes the evangelists’ humility is just a fad that they followed along with the general trend Christ set: in order to be accepted by the new society of “the Way”.

This dear brother is full of extremely frustrated notions about society. He often refers to himself as the only morally-good person in his city. All he ever complains about in everyday life is how bad women are and how stupid men are. He’s full of dismissive anger (not rage, just inner anger) at all of society and wishes God would just be kind enough to show us all the angels, or to make him an angel so he can stop worrying about morality. I can see that he’s tortured, but the walls he puts up against the Scriptures are formidable in his self-confidence. He cannot be moved, and his heart is hardened.

How can I convince this unfortunate person that the Scriptures have the many qualities we claim they do? What evidence can I show that they were written by the evangelists in the A.D. 40’s-90’s? Who can I point to as extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus’ miracles (not just our Lord’s existence, but miracles and resurrection)? He refuses to accept the Gospels as historical accounts, because they’re “full of magic”. If an historical account is secular and non-supernatural in its explanations, he’ll accept it; if it’s religious, he’ll reject it - even if it says things about history that really are true.

We can see, in this fellow creature, the singular bias of approaching anything with an anti-God bent. If there’s any mention of God, something is totally discredited in his mind. I don’t want to see him dragged into Hell for his hatred and vitriolic rubbish, but what can be done? 😦
 
Perhaps you could show him an ancient manuscript online or something, then show him a direct and literal translation of those, and have them compare them to modern translations in order to show him that they haven’t been changed over the years?
 
My advice: don’t bother arguing.

Faith isn’t based on evidence, it is based on love and charity and virtue.

Display these and show how they give you peace- focus on the deeper concept only.

If a person sees these deeper sentiments lived out, he can hardly fail to notice where they are missing in his own self.

Instead of talking about religion, talk about faith.
 
Actually, the poor fellow lives in Aberdeen, and I live across the ocean in eastern Canada. 😉 It is literally impossible to be an example to him (though I’d be a pretty bad example, considering how easily I get angry at atheist rubbish). Pointing him to the Gospels for example, or for Christians in Scotland as an example won’t do… because he refuses to read the Gospels (“I don’t have time for magical fairytales”), and he doesn’t want to have anything to do with “those boring” Christians. Anyway, the U.K. is hardly famous for its zealous Christian population these days.
40.png
Holly3278:
Perhaps you could show him an ancient manuscript online or something, then show him a direct and literal translation of those, and have them compare them to modern translations in order to show him that they haven’t been changed over the years?
Click to expand...
My friend, that would be impossible. The earliest manuscript I could show him would undoubtedly be later than the Apostles’ oral teachings. He’d insist (and has insisted) that the teaching could have changed between 50 AD and 150 AD, before our first manuscripts. He seems to view all of scriptural history as a vast game of “Telephone”, whereby you start with one sentence whispered in the ear of one person, and at the end of the line you have a totally different story, or at least a significantly different one.

I need real evidence, or at least real logical syllogism. He’s not the sort to be impressed by virtuous action or faith, because he will predictably say he’s better and that we’re just doing it for our own aggrandisement anyway. :confused:
 
Given that you have no personal contact with this person, I think you are asking the impossible (for us, not for God).
As you have basically stated, he already “knows it all” and until that changes, nothing you show him, no argument you make, no suggested reading, nothing at all you could write to him will do any good.

The first thing that has to happen is his outlook must change from the inside. The Holy Spirit will need to act first in his heart to soften it. Only then will you have an opportunity to “give him pause”.

Your best bet is to simply display the Christian view of things in everyday life.
Let him complain about others and then offer a different perspective (from the P.O.V. of Love). Let him grouse, and complain and then just gently explain how happy you are that you don’t do (or no longer do) those things (like booze and fornication).

And then, of course, pray for him daily.

Peace
James
 
Yes, JRKH, that seems to be the best course of action. We cannot condemn our misguided brethren and ignorant fellow creatures, because we were very often worse before our personal conversion to the way of God. He alone is righteous and just, and gives us His beautiful life. I hope hope that my friend’s hardness and flippancy is not a sign of his inevitable fall into the abyss. The man needs morals!

Once I’m baptised, all my sins are wiped away, and I am a clean child before God with merit through Christ’s baptism, I swear I’ll start a thousand devotions for him. Something about this person obsesses me; I absolutely want him in Heaven, no holds barred. We’re not too close, but the conquering of his obstinacy would be a great nose-thumbing to Satan and the powers which encroach upon and claim him.

A great sign of hope is the fact that he gave me permission to pray in his name. Being a total atheist who hates religion and believes “science” to be a sort of magical thing above “mere logic”, he has no respect for the sacred power of names. We know, though, that names describe a thing in reality and throughout the universe. All creation recognises a name, just as the Holy Name makes all knees bow. His giving me permission to use his name to pray to God, and to take possession of it for his conversion, is a great grace and a gift on his part, to have his heart softened enough to allow such a concession.

I just hope God can “get to him” before he drinks himself to death in some awful slum.
 
If there were actual ‘scientific’ proof of God everyone would believe. You seem to be asking for a level of evidence that does not exist. That’s not to say don’t try to help him though.

I’d just focus on kindness and prayer. When he’s being particularly unhappy, angry or depressed you might mention how it is ironic that even with all his “logic” and “knowledge” he is still so unhappy and how you and all your other ‘ignorant’ Catholic friends seem to be living much happier, more meaningful lives. Of course he could site examples of sad Catholics and happy atheists but he may eventually see the light so to speak.

Also, see if you can appeal to his competitive nature. Challenge him to “Act As If God were real”, even if he is not to see if his life improves or not. Suggest he take 6 months and live a hard core Catholic life. Then compare his life before and after. If he finds himself happier and more fulfilled the faith may follow after. If not, you’re in no worse a position then before.
 
limabeanerson said:
If there were actual ‘scientific’ proof of God everyone would believe. You seem to be asking for a level of evidence that does not exist. That’s not to say don’t try to help him though.

I’d just focus on kindness and prayer. When he’s being particularly unhappy, angry or depressed you might mention how it is ironic that even with all his “logic” and “knowledge” he is still so unhappy and how you and all your other ‘ignorant’ Catholic friends seem to be living much happier, more meaningful lives. Of course he could site examples of sad Catholics and happy atheists but he may eventually see the light so to speak.

Also, see if you can appeal to his competitive nature. Challenge him to “Act As If God were real”, even if he is not to see if his life improves or not. Suggest he take 6 months and live a hard core Catholic life. Then compare his life before and after. If he finds himself happier and more fulfilled the faith may follow after. If not, you’re in no worse a position then before.
Click to expand...
His atheism is a justification of his promiscuity; that much is obvious, even from a psychological perspective. He uses it as a means of making his incredibly empty life sound reasonable. In order to justify the atheism, though, he deifies science. He has admitted that his life is unhappy despite the unspeakable acts he commits every weekend, but won’t admit that atheism and scientism are the consequences of this looseness.

He would be very much opposed to living in a manner considered virtuous by Catholics. It would be against his moral code to do so, since he believes religion is collectivist and non-individual by nature, while he is free and individual by nature. To follow the Catholic moral code even as a test of his courage and fortitude would be too much. He is profoundly romantic, and falls into other dreamy subjects very quickly.

Remember that whenever I point to happy Catholics, he says “see? religion is just about feeling good that you’re all warm and protected by magical sky wizards”. Whenever I point out Catholics who are sad, he brings up Sociological rubbish and says “of course they’re unhappy… it’s a delusion they have.”, etc.
 
I will reiterate previous post; the first step is to pray to Christ to prepare the way with the Holy Spirit ; and pray for the Holy Spirit to give you the Patience to wait till the proper time; for wisdom to speak and act in the appropriate way and the divination to know both of the latter. Pray also that your own faith is strong to face the challenges involved in dealing with the inevitable challenges to your own faith that you will experience as satan does his best to hold back the process. The Rosary is Great as wasn’t the call for conversion of sinners central to Fatima.

Also remember your prayer may not be answered by the privalege of you being the final instrument of this friends return but be assured they will be a valuable part.

Yes also the fact he allowed you to pray for him is a 2 edged sword 1) yes he is assenting which is good but 2) it is now a test of your faith. So stay strong and believe and allow the Spirit the time to work but if you keep up the prayer it will work and the longer the gap the bigger your faith reward will be.

Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

in time Christ can open the eyes of this blind young person. 😃

As far as a practical starting point I’m a great believer in focusing in one place and not allowing the discussion to ramble all over the place so it really goes nowhere. I would suggest that be patient and keep to getting him to at least accept that they are are least open to the idea that there may be a God.
 
Okay as you say he is biased against the Gospels does he have a bias against the Old Testament. There are almost 100 prophecies in the OT that foretold details about the Life of Christ. When St. Paul spoke to Timothy (2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness) he was referring to the OT. That was all that was available. He may find the Jewish portion of the scriptures to be more reliable and certainly they speak of the Messiah.

About the most you can do is to plant “seeds” for the Holy Spirit to use to soften his heart. Also ask him to explain the mystery of goodness. If God is so cruel and uncaring and mankind so corrupt why is there good in the world? Why is there beauty? Why is there great classical music? Why do we have a conscience? Why do people help others when there is a disaster? The very creation tells about God. It is a testimony of his Goodness and His love. God’s love put Jesus on the cross not the sickness of man. Our very existence cries out for love and understanding. We want to know and be known by God. Tell him that a person can’t be angry with God unless they deep down believe there is a God. I believe that is why atheists seem so angry all the time. And, Why do people invoke God’s name when they curse. You never hear people saying,“Zeus damn” or something silly like that. Why do people use the name of “Jesus Christ” in profane ways?

Your friend may have to hit bottom and come to deep despair before he will listen to God.
C.S. Lewis said, “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” Challenge him with books by Christian and Catholic philosophers especially those from the British Isles.

I don’t believe any man is beyond help and certainly not out of reach of God. Send him a copy of the poem “Hound of Heaven.” He may run and try to hide from God but he can’t. Keep picking at him with little tidbits of Christian thought. When he has amount of doubt about his beliefs the Holy Spirit will work on him.

Also pray for his conversion. You may never see or know when it happens. It may be 20 years or more from now but you did what you were told to do. You never know he may be a bishop one day.

Listen to the Holy Spirit. He will guide you. Alway emphasize God’s love.

Pro 3:5-7 Trust wholeheartedly in Yahweh, put no faith in your own perception;
acknowledge him in every course you take, and he will see that your paths are smooth.
Do not congratulate yourself on your own wisdom, fear Yahweh and turn your back on evil:

God bless you and keep you.
 
I agree with the others. Honestly, the only thing you can do with this young man right now is to pray for him. If you are really serious about converting him, use all the spiritual weapons in the Church’s arsenal. Go to adoration and offer holy hours for him. Start a novena to St. Monica for his sake. Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for his conversion. Say the aspiration, “O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in You!” Jesus told St. Faustina that whenever a person said this prayer with true devotion on behalf of an unbelieving soul, He always hears it. Make little sacrifices and mortifications throughout the day and offer them in union with Christ’s suffering for his soul. Offer all your communions and devotions at mass for him.

You can be the most eloquent person in the world, but you can’t convert someone with a closed heart. Only God can do that. Pray for his will to bend towards God. Good luck to you!
 
William_Pitts said:
Okay … Messiah.
Click to expand...
I’m sure he’d say that the Old Testament was already believed by these Christian zealots. His notion is that those fanatics continually wrote and re-wrote the Gospel (thus why we have four approved and many unapproved versions) as they discovered and re-discovered Old Testament prophecies in the decades immediately after our Lord’s life. He refuses to look at any prophecies or “magical rites” or rituals, because such things do death to anything, in his opinion.
… ask him to explain the mystery of goodness. If God is so cruel and uncaring and mankind so corrupt why is there good in the world? Why is there beauty? Why is there great classical music? Why do we have a conscience? Why do people help others when there is a disaster? The very creation tells about God. It is a testimony of his Goodness and His love. God’s love put Jesus on the cross not the sickness of man. Our very existence cries out for love and understanding. We want to know and be known by God. Tell him that a person can’t be angry with God unless they deep down believe there is a God. I believe that is why atheists seem so angry all the time.
Click to expand...
My friend would precisely say that there isn’t much good in the world, and that he’s the only really good person he knows. He said beauty is just our attempt to make sense out of chaos and get some comfort before we die. Music is the same, even great symphonies; he reduces it to the biological pleasure which the harmonies produce. Conscience, according to him, is just a primitive remnant of developed tribal morality. People help others in times of disaster out of a selfish motive to show themselves worthy of being helped when the time comes.

He believes we have superimposed our superstitious, supernatural ideas on the meaningless creation. It’s very frustrating. 😛
And, Why do people invoke God’s name when they curse. You never hear people saying,“Zeus damn” or something silly like that. Why do people use the name of “Jesus Christ” in profane ways?
Click to expand...
He’d say that this phenomenon is based on the culture. Remember that he took Sociology in university, my friend! Everything is, to him, a totally natural and secular consequence of society. Here I’d have to agree with him anyway, because Jesus Christ is still a name that is very much ingrained in our society. The Romans under Trajan probably never said our Lord’s name in profane, angry ways… simply because they’d never heard of Him, even though He had died nearly 100 years before. It is likely that ancient Greeks probably said “by Zeus’ throne”, or some other ridiculous blasphemy according to their religion. It’d be no great shocker.
Your friend may have to hit bottom and come to deep despair before he will listen to God.
C.S. Lewis said, “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” Challenge him with books by Christian and Catholic philosophers especially those from the British Isles.
Click to expand...
He has no time for them. If I cite Lewis, he’ll just make fun because Lewis wrote childrens’ stories, and is thus childish and can’t be trusted to put forth serious argument. Naturally this opinion of his would be gone if he actually read Lewis, but he wouldn’t bother. He might be convinced by me to do it once, but the next day he’d be back at despair because some girl didn’t get intimate with him the night before.
Also pray for his conversion. You may never see or know when it happens. It may be 20 years or more from now but you did what you were told to do. You never know he may be a bishop one day.
Click to expand...
That’s my great hope!

Here’s a quote from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the Existence of God:

“It is true that a mere barren intellectual assent to the truth of God’s existence — and such an assent is conceivable — falls very far short of what religious assent ought to be; that what is taught in revealed religion about the worthlessness of faith uninformed by charity has its counterpart in natural religion; and that practical Theism, if it pretends to be adequate, must appeal not merely to the intellect but to the heart and conscience of mankind and be capable of winning the total allegiance of rational creatures. But here again we meet with exaggeration and confusion on the part of those Theists who would substitute for intellectual assent something that does not exclude but presupposes it and is only required to complement it.”

If his conscience is dead, then he will not be open to the appeals of divine intellectual reality. Hmmmmm!
wild_thing said:
I agree with the others. Honestly, the only thing you can do with this young man right now is to pray for him. If you are really serious about converting him, use all the spiritual weapons in the Church’s arsenal. Go to adoration and offer holy hours for him. Start a novena to St. Monica for his sake. Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for his conversion. Say the aspiration, “O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in You!” Jesus told St. Faustina that whenever a person said this prayer with true devotion on behalf of an unbelieving soul, He always hears it. Make little sacrifices and mortifications throughout the day and offer them in union with Christ’s suffering for his soul. Offer all your communions and devotions at mass for him.
Click to expand...
🙂 I have just one week until my prayers become 100% meritorious in the sight of God, as my vile sins are wiped clean by His holy baptism. After that, I’ll abuse my friend’s name every day by praying for him! 😃 Mwahahahaha!
 
I have quoted a few things from your posts that give indication and insight into this person’s character. There may well be many good avenues of discussion contained in them. Don’t expect any “Eureka” moments, but they could go a long way in tilling the soil prepratory to planting seeds.
He is not at all very happy, and tries to immerse himself in promiscuous sex and alcohol as much as he can.
Click to expand...
He often refers to himself as the only morally-good person in his city.
Click to expand...
He’s full of dismissive anger (not rage, just inner anger) at all of society and wishes God would just be kind enough to show us all the angels, or to make him an angel so he can stop worrying about morality.
Click to expand...
He has admitted that his life is unhappy despite the unspeakable acts he commits every weekend…
Click to expand...
He would be very much opposed to living in a manner considered virtuous by Catholics. It would be against his moral code to do so, since he believes religion is collectivist and non-individual by nature, while he is free and individual by nature.
Click to expand...
For instance, he is terribly unhappy but considers himself to be the, “only morally-good person in his city”. He goes out and acts on his “morality” and is still unhappy…Why? If his morals are so good, and he is not acting in some way against himself, then why is he unhappy? Seems that if his moral stance were so great, then he should not be filled with anger, but rather with joy. He should be happy. Ask him if his moral code is so good, why does he wish God would make him an angel so he could stop worrying about morality?
The very fact that he is not, and feels this constant anger, the desire to denigrate others, etc demonstrates that there may be something wrong with his “moral outlook”.

For now you could leave God out of the conversation. In fact I would. After all, before one can plant the seed of God’s word, one needs to till the soil. His thinking needs to be plowed up, turned over, and softened so that the Word may take root.
Speak in terms of moralities. The morality he believes (atheistic hedonism) and what fruit it has borne in him (unhappiness), and the morality of Christianity (Agape (brotherly) Love) and the fruits it has brought you. In this way the question isn’t about “God” but moral codes and their consequences for the individual.

So – Rather than trying to provide “Proofs” for God, perhaps it would be better to scour his words (I assume you e-mail or message a lot) and see how you can turn his own words back on him in ways that will cause him to think. At that point the Holy Spirit will be able to make inroads.

Food for thought.

Peace
James
 
GloriousOrder said:
My friend says that the Gospels are not to be trusted as the revealed word of God because of their ancient quality (and thus unreliability). He believes that the Holy Scriptures have been changed and shaped to fit the times.
Click to expand...
Start here:

Proving the Accuracy of the Bible

Each author of a NT book wrote an original manuscript which I’ll call “M”. Using M, copies were made and sent to various Churches in the NT era. I’ll call these second-generation copies, C1, C2 & C3. The number of copies is not important for this illustration. Now, imagine that copies of the copies were made as the Christian Church expanded since every local congregation wanted to have a copy of these important texts. I’ll call the copies of C1, C1a, C1b & C1c. There would also be C2a, C2b, and so forth. With me so far? I sure hope the following diagram reproduces well…think of each column as a generation. The copies which have not been lost are in red.

M—C1—C1a—C1a1
-------------C1b—C1b1
----------------------C1b2
-------------C1c—C1c1
----------------------C1c2
------C2—C2a—C2a1
-------------C2b—C2b1
------C3—C3a—C3a1
----------------------C3a2
-------------C3b—C3b1
-------------C3c—C3c1
----------------------C3c2
----------------------C3c3

Now, imagine further that M, C1, C2 & C3 along with C1a, C2a, C3a & C3b have all been lost, but that C1b, C1c, C2b & C3c are all in museums scattered around the world - Moscow, London, the Vatican, etc. Additionally, all of the copies of those copies still exist (I’m simplifying, of course).

We know that M must have existed, and logic dictates that C1, C2 & C3 must have existed (though we may be unsure of the number of first-generation copies). We can learn that both C1 & C2 must have existed by comparing the extant copies C1b & C2b and discovering subtle variations in the texts - copyists glosses or “typos”, if you will. If C1 was slightly different from C2, then those differences will be reflected in C1a and C2a along with all of the subsequent copies of those copies. Variations were passed on from generation to generation. Make sense?

So, how can we know with certainty what the Bible actually said if we don’t have the original autograph (M) or if errors (variations) crept into the text? By comparing the existing texts, scholars can work backwards to determine what M actually said. This process, called Textual Criticism, can never be perfect since humans are involved (along with the Holy Spirit!), but we can have a high degree of confidence that the Bible we have to day contains the message that the original authors intended to convey.

+++

At least that’s how I understand it. I welcome any corrections to this explanation.
 
JRKH said:
…
So – Rather than trying to provide “Proofs” for God, perhaps it would be better to scour his words (I assume you e-mail or message a lot) and see how you can turn his own words back on him in ways that will cause him to think. At that point the Holy Spirit will be able to make inroads.
Click to expand...
Good advice. I think one of the best ways to deal with atheists is to let them talk about their view of everything, and continually question their philosophically foundation by taking what they say, and applying it consistently to the rest of their views.

This approach lets them get their side of the story in, while giving them an opportunity to really think through their understanding of life without God.
GloriousOrder said:
Dear friends :),

My friend says that the Gospels are not to be trusted as the revealed word of God because of their ancient quality (and thus unreliability). He believes that the Holy Scriptures have been changed and shaped to fit the times.
Click to expand...
For future reference, If someone claims that the Gospels (the Bible really) are unreliable, challenge them to prove that claim by showing how the text and the meaning of the Gospels has changed from the time of the Apostles to the present. Old manuscripts and the Church Fathers will definitively counter this in a logical battle.

For someone who discounts God, they will not logically believe in the Bible, and thus the best approach I think is to convince them that a world with God makes more sense, and the arguments for His existence are better than the arguments against God and a world without God. It’s very hard to use Scripture in a war where Scripture isn’t believed.

For your immediate situation, I agree with most of the posters here in that it seems the best approach is to pray. Sometimes in life, further arguing is pointless (ie. casting your pearls before swine) and the best we can do is to live out our lives in an exemplified manner.

However stay alert, and watch for an appropriate time to rekindle your message. Knowing when to speak up and when not too is kinda hard, but use your best judgement and speak only when you think they are truly listening.

Thank you for being another Defender of the Faith! :knight2: Trying times we are at; and few speak up these days so thank you for your efforts and may God be with you!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top