Glorifying and worshiping God?

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ZenFred said:
. . . When we meditate we “just sit” and allow our thoughts and emotions to rise and diminish without controlling them but also without pursuing them. Eventually they all fall away and we experience the clear sky of no-thought. That God seeking God moment. . . .When we wash the dishes, we just wash the dishes without judgment. We begin to see the presence of God within ourselves, within the soap, the dishes, all of it. . . if you were too attached to doctrine that you placed human opinion (on the finer points of the trinity for example) above the reality of God that it would in a sense be idolatry. . . . I suppose that would remain true, since I’ve always understood “Buddha” to be ultimate divine reality beyond description. . . .
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:twocents:

Just to clarify and provide my random perspective on this:

Doctrine points to truth and is more than an opinion.
Idolatry is the worship of a creature; while scripture etc are creations, one can be attached to them as far as they lead one to the Truth.
In Christianity, we have the New Testament, which points to the Way: Jesus Christ.

The presence of God is everywhere, as its Creator.
We are other to His Self, and we can thereby enter into a loving relationship with Him.
Created in the image of God, we are relational in nature.

We are not God.
God does not seek God through us.
He wants for us, our fulfillment which is to be found in Him.

When we wash the dishes, we relate to the dishes as participants in the material universe.
The unity is in the relationship between self and other existing in the same reality.
The most perfect relationship is love - union in the giving of oneself.

All this sounds complicated when the aim is “the clear sky of no-thought”, seeming to steer one away from the goal.
In Him, however, that is what we find: simple Truth.
 
Aloysium,
In a former life, I was a theology major (at a Lutheran college) so I can appreciate your critique of my non-adherence in particular places to orthodox doctrine.
“Doctrine points to truth and is more than an opinion”
But the doctrine itself is not truth, it points to truth and I would say very often incorrectly. Even when say this is an internet forum, that isn’t true because it doesn’t truly describe the nature of the forum. It is clearly not identical to other internet forums (4chan) nor it is literally a forum in the old roman sense that takes place on the internet (with togas and yelling and all).
“We are not God, God does not seek God through us”
True, but when we are justified through Christ. God dwells within us and is made known through us. So the God in “us” is in union with the God everywhere else (cause it’s the same God) and draws our justified nature closer to God. God doesn’t truly seek God, since God doesn’t need to seek anything. But saying God seeking God is poetic description of this experience I guess. Even John uses the word “enlightenment” to describe this, and that experience is indescribable.
“When we wash the dishes, we relate to the dishes as participants in the material universe”
True, Zen teaches it isn’t matter that is the problem its thoughts. Thinking “I hate doing the dishes” or “What am I doing tomorrow?” have nothing to do with the dishes themselves. Instead of dwelling in thought we can dwell in the moment where God’s presence is in all things even in dish-washing and even that activity becomes communion with Him.
“In Him, however, that is what we find: simple Truth”
Absolutely! There is a great Zen teaching that God/enlightenment is like coca-cola. It isn’t special and its found everywhere. It’s not a only Sundays thing, or only in church thing, or only special type of people thing. Yet at the same time it is indescribable, the only way to allow someone who has never tasted it to know it is to hand them a can. Of course there are plenty of ways God is not like coca-cola.
So all my thoughts, explanations, philosophizing having nothing to do with the real God. In fact my over-thinking makes me a poor Zen student : )
While I enjoyed responding to your points, my focus is not having correct Catholic or any doctrine. I realize this makes me heretical, but I am not preaching or in holy orders. Until recently, my faith in Christ at all was in serious question. My thoughts are only an approximation, a general hypothetical framework that I try to keep as simple as possible. I embrace the not-knowing and understand that any claims of knowledge I make are prone to human weakness. So may God forgive any incorrect beliefs and look at my devotion and faith instead of my intellectual beliefs. For being Zen, I talk wayyy too much.

-Fred
 
ZenFred said:
Aloysium,
In a former life, I was a theology major (at a Lutheran college) so I can appreciate your critique of my non-adherence in particular places to orthodox doctrine.
“Doctrine points to truth and is more than an opinion”
But the doctrine itself is not truth, it points to truth and I would say very often incorrectly. Even when say this is an internet forum, that isn’t true because it doesn’t truly describe the nature of the forum. It is clearly not identical to other internet forums (4chan) nor it is literally a forum in the old roman sense that takes place on the internet (with togas and yelling and all).
“We are not God, God does not seek God through us”
True, but when we are justified through Christ. God dwells within us and is made known through us. So the God in “us” is in union with the God everywhere else (cause it’s the same God) and draws our justified nature closer to God. God doesn’t truly seek God, since God doesn’t need to seek anything. But saying God seeking God is poetic description of this experience I guess. Even John uses the word “enlightenment” to describe this, and that experience is indescribable.
“When we wash the dishes, we relate to the dishes as participants in the material universe”
True, Zen teaches it isn’t matter that is the problem its thoughts. Thinking “I hate doing the dishes” or “What am I doing tomorrow?” have nothing to do with the dishes themselves. Instead of dwelling in thought we can dwell in the moment where God’s presence is in all things even in dish-washing and even that activity becomes communion with Him.
“In Him, however, that is what we find: simple Truth”
Absolutely! There is a great Zen teaching that God/enlightenment is like coca-cola. It isn’t special and its found everywhere. It’s not a only Sundays thing, or only in church thing, or only special type of people thing. Yet at the same time it is indescribable, the only way to allow someone who has never tasted it to know it is to hand them a can. Of course there are plenty of ways God is not like coca-cola.
So all my thoughts, explanations, philosophizing having nothing to do with the real God. In fact my over-thinking makes me a poor Zen student : )
While I enjoyed responding to your points, my focus is not having correct Catholic or any doctrine. I realize this makes me heretical, but I am not preaching or in holy orders. Until recently, my faith in Christ at all was in serious question. My thoughts are only an approximation, a general hypothetical framework that I try to keep as simple as possible. I embrace the not-knowing and understand that any claims of knowledge I make are prone to human weakness. So may God forgive any incorrect beliefs and look at my devotion and faith instead of my intellectual beliefs. For being Zen, I talk wayyy too much.

-Fred
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Gotta talk now and then Mr Zen. 🙂 Anyway, the Christian faith, through scripture and doctrine, give us a language and framework with which to think and talk about the Reality which is beyond all other realities. The function of dogma is to lead us to this Reality, but we can easily fall into thinking and talking too much, and to thinking we have all the understanding possible just by rote learning of the dogma.

But the teachings are no more or less than pointers to an actual experience-the “vision” of God- one which we may receive glimpses of in the here and now but expect to experience fully and continuously in the next life. I sense you know that already-at least about the experiential part. But in any case the “experience of God” is just as practical as any other experience we may have while being infinitely more profound.

CatholicFred
 
fhansen (aka the Catholic-Fred),

My intention is not make anyone feel as if they need to defend their faith or doctrine. If I say that is a mistake for me as a Zen student to say doctrinal issues are true (Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit) it is equally a mistake for me to say they are false (Jesus was conceived in typical fashion). If doctrine is true, and I chose to not believe that doesn’t change anything. Truth is truth. So whenever possible, I try to remain in not-knowing, accepting that I do not know and not attaching to a possibly false premise. Why be so non-committal? Because clinging to false beliefs leads to suffering for myself and others. If I think Mormonism is true and I thereby exclude and treat poorly those who don’t agree with me, give all this money and time to the LDS church, delude others into joining me, and it turns out Mormonism is a crock, then I hurt myself and others.

More fundamentally than even that, I respect the religious pursuits of others and believe you should judge a tree by its fruits. If you have a healthy religious practice that is helping you feel closer to God and be better person to your neighbors, I would be a serious jerk to mess with that. (Now if I KNEW you were wrong and could help you correct course for your own good that’s a different story, but since I’m Zen I don’t know).

All that is to say I apprecaite and value the wisdom that everyone here has. And that’s not just a Zenism, this is by far the best christian forum I’ve found.

-The Zen-Fred
 
ZenFred said:
fhansen (aka the Catholic-Fred),

My intention is not make anyone feel as if they need to defend their faith or doctrine. If I say that is a mistake for me as a Zen student to say doctrinal issues are true (Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit) it is equally a mistake for me to say they are false (Jesus was conceived in typical fashion). If doctrine is true, and I chose to not believe that doesn’t change anything. Truth is truth. So whenever possible, I try to remain in not-knowing, accepting that I do not know and not attaching to a possibly false premise. Why be so non-committal? Because clinging to false beliefs leads to suffering for myself and others. If I think Mormonism is true and I thereby exclude and treat poorly those who don’t agree with me, give all this money and time to the LDS church, delude others into joining me, and it turns out Mormonism is a crock, then I hurt myself and others.

More fundamentally than even that, I respect the religious pursuits of others and believe you should judge a tree by its fruits. If you have a healthy religious practice that is helping you feel closer to God and be better person to your neighbors, I would be a serious jerk to mess with that. (Now if I KNEW you were wrong and could help you correct course for your own good that’s a different story, but since I’m Zen I don’t know).

All that is to say I apprecaite and value the wisdom that everyone here has. And that’s not just a Zenism, this is by far the best christian forum I’ve found.

-The Zen-Fred
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No, that’s fine-and honest. I just mean to emphasize the experiential side of Christianity; it’s not lacking, and it is the ultimate goal, in fact. And to acknowledge that we don’t know is the first step in knowing. To insist that we know when we don’t is hypocrisy anyway. Faith is a different kind of knowledge-one that informs us beyond our own capabilities to know by reason alone-but one that admits to the possibility of error, because of our human limitations since this knowledge is dependent on a source higher than ourselves.

CF 🙂
 
ZenFred,

Peace,

In “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” Blessed John Paul II said:

“In prayer, then, the true protagonist is God. The protagonist is Christ, who constantly frees creation from slavery to corruption and leads it toward liberty, for the glory of the children of God. The protagonist is the Holy Spirit, who “comes to the aid of our weakness.” We begin to pray, believing that it is our own initiative that compels us to do so. Instead, we learn that it is always God’s initiative within us, just as Saint Paul has written. This initiative restores in us our true humanity; it restores in us our unique dignity. Yes, we are brought into the higher dignity of the children of God, the children of God who are the hope of all creation.”

In “Ich Du” Martin Buber said:

“The Thou meets me through grace-it is not found by seeking. But my speaking of the primary word to it is an act of my being, is indeed the act of my being. The Thou meets me. But I step into direct relation with it. Hence the relation means being chosen and choosing, suffering and action in one; just as any action of the whole being, which means the suspension of all partial actions and consequently of all sensations of actions grounded only in their particular limitation, is bound to resemble suffering…”

Does one of these statements, more than the other, resemble your current place on your path?

Just curious, no guile, no subterfuge.

Peace
 
Hazcompt,

I don’t really understand Buber out of context of his overall thought. I do like the Pope’s explanation. I should reread his Faith and Reason at some point.

I think the temptation is to pray to this thought of God we have in our minds. But that conception of God isn’t God. Maybe this is why I didn’t find true peace and healing until I left the church and let go of my beliefs and hubris. It was the same letting go that brought me back, the embracing of the not-knowing allowed me not to be blinded by human opinion and open to the truth when I heard it.

Soto Zen teaches there is nothing to attain, no place to go. All my searching, doubting, loosing and finding faith, all along God was here. That’s very Zen : )

I actually talked to a Zen teacher this morning who is also Christian. She is a student of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_(Jesuit who I may get the chance to meet next month.

I guess talking about prayer really boils down to the experience (Kensho in japanese) of enlightenment/God. I can’t describe it and it is the center of my practice. It is the “goalless goal”. And yes it make sense that really Kensho is God seeking me, because it is by not striving, not seeking that I find. And I find everything I ever need in infinite abundance! My practice is to attain “this way unattainable”.

-Fred
 
ZenFred said:
I guess talking about prayer really boils down to the experience (Kensho in japanese) of enlightenment/God. I can’t describe it and it is the center of my practice. It is the “goalless goal”. And yes it make sense that really Kensho is God seeking me, because it is by not striving, not seeking that I find. And I find everything I ever need in infinite abundance! My practice is to attain “this way unattainable”.

-Fred
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I think we do have a real goal and that goal is* happiness. **Un*happiness is a disorder, while happiness is our homeostasis, and yet it’s somehow elusive in this life. The pain issuing from whatever unhappiness we experience is what drives us to seek a “higher”, a different, way than the one life presents us with. There’s honesty in the acceptance of this simple fact: we desire happiness. And there’s nothing selfish in that; it’s God’s desire for us as well, always has been. We’re here to learn of the source of our unhappiness-and its antidote. The following teachings are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:

We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.

How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you.

God alone satisfies.

1818 The virtue of hope responds to the aspiration to happiness which God has placed in the heart of every man; it takes up the hopes that inspire men’s activities and purifies them so as to order them to the Kingdom of heaven; it keeps man from discouragement; it sustains him during times of abandonment; it opens up his heart in expectation of eternal beatitude. Buoyed up by hope, he is preserved from selfishness and led to the happiness that flows from charity.

384 Revelation makes known to us the state of original holiness and justice of man and woman before sin: from their friendship with God flowed the happiness of their existence in paradise.

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.

1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.” From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

2548 Desire for true happiness frees man from his immoderate attachment to the goods of this world so that he can find his fulfillment in the vision and beatitude of God. “The promise [of seeing God] surpasses all beatitude. . . . In Scripture, to see is to possess. . . . Whoever sees God has obtained all the goods of which he can conceive.”

2639 Praise is the form of prayer which recognizes most immediately that God is God. It lauds God for his own sake and gives him glory, quite beyond what he does, but simply because HE IS. It shares in the blessed happiness of the pure of heart who love God in faith before seeing him in glory. By praise, the Spirit is joined to our spirits to bear witness that we are children of God, testifying to the only Son in whom we are adopted and by whom we glorify the Father. Praise embraces the other forms of prayer and carries them toward him who is its source and goal: the “one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist.”
**
 
The Kinds of Divine Union

The Different Kinds of Union with God We must remember here that John has distinguished three kinds of union with God. By means of the first God dwells substantially in all created things and sustains their existence. By the second, we are to understand the indwelling of God in the soul through grace; by the third, the transforming union through perfect love that divinizes the soul.

…In the Spiritual Canticle, for instance, the saint mentions the same three categories, without speaking of only a degree of difference between God’s presence by grace and that by love. Rather, he emphasizes the perceptible feeling of the presence of the highest good in the union of love and what it effects: the ardent longing for the unveiled beatific vision of God. Our holy Mother, St. Teresa has also been greatly occupied with this question. In the Interior Castle, she says that through the prayer of union she came to know the article of faith that God is in everything through his essence, his presence, and his power. She had only known, before that, of the indwelling through grace. Now she consulted various theologians in order to gain clarity about her discovery. A “half-learned man” also knew only of the indwelling through grace. But others were able to confirm for her that the enlightenment she received through her experience of union was an article of faith. Perhaps if we attempt a comparison of our order’s founders’ presentations, which differ so much from each other it will help us gain greater objective clarity.

Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 2929-2933). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
 
Hazcompat,

“The Different Kinds of Union with God We must remember here that John has distinguished three kinds of union with God. By means of the first God dwells substantially in all created things and sustains their existence. By the second, we are to understand the indwelling of God in the soul through grace; by the third, the transforming union through perfect love that divinizes the soul.”

That is exactly why I like John so much, that explains exactly my experience. I’m swamped with school work right now, (I am an Occupational Therapy graduate student) but I hope to go back to reading his works soon.

CF,

You said “I think we do have a real goal and that goal is happiness. Unhappiness is a disorder, while happiness is our homeostasis, and yet it’s somehow elusive in this life. The pain issuing from whatever unhappiness we experience is what drives us to seek a “higher”, a different, way than the one life presents us with.” This is very much the same basic message the Dalia Lama said in dalailama.com/messages/compassion

It is the basic message of Buddhism is that we seek happiness, but encounter only unhappiness/suffering/disappointment due to our attachments and cravings (what you would call “sinful” nature). That is the core of the 4 noble truths.

In general I am very surprised by how much Catholic teaching and tradition contains a mystical element. I think this is aspect is lacking in most protestant traditions. (Though I really appreciate the Quakers and have been to one of their meetings before).

-Fred
 
So I had talked about how for the path of “enlightenment” is one of non-attaining, with no where to go and the “goalless goal” I was looking for being here all along. Thought I’d explain that a bit.

Tthere is a very traditional zen teaching of the oxherding pictures en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls that describe the steps of reaching for enlightenment, from seeking the ox (true self/enlightenment), to getting a glimpse of it, to wrestling with it, all the way to the self vanishing, to returning back the world to share your wisdom. Seeing this a stages or steps is the traditional way of looking at the pictures.

However there is a uniquely Soto (a sub-school of Japanese Zen Buddhism which I practice) view, that teaches the ox is there the whole time. The quest and journey allow the seeker to chase after his goal only to arrive back at the beginning to find it.

I think seeing the experience of “enlightenment” from a theistic perspective takes to another level. While we are the seeker, God is also seeking us. I think multiple people have put that in posts to me and I know scripture is full of references to God seeking us when are the lost sheep, or being the author of our faith.

So I fully admit I do not adhere to traditional Christian doctrine, but my faith in Christ informs and brings illumination to my Zen practice. I am still perhaps more Buddhist than Christian in view and practice, but I feel it is a good place for me.

bows -Fred
 
I wonder what is it that makes Fred think he is not enlightened.
Perhaps Fred cannot be enlightened; maybe enlightenment will be found to contain Fred.

Sights, sounds, ideas: connections to reality grounding the spirit.
These twisting and turning ideas, so that Fred can rise above himself.
Yearning to break free, to soar to the heavens, pierce the core of reality, here we sit.

Going nowhere, passing time.
Awesome ain’t it? If it isn’t, well that is even more amazing!

. . . given the Source.
 
Aloysium,

Hmm… interesting. I am not sure what you mean by “enlightenment” in that context. I think that is a dangerous word in Buddhism anyways, since the moment you think you have or understand it or define it, you don’t.

But I see “enlightenment” as experience of and union with God. There is a analogy that seeking enlightenment is like shoveling snow off a driveway where the driveway is the divine presence and the snow is illusion and sin. (we don’t use the word sin, but craving/attachments). Even if there is 10 feet of snow, the driveway is always still there and never goes away.

God’s Peace, Fred
 
I decided to take a short, week long break from any study or discussion in order to focus more intently in prayer and meditation. When I return I’ll start a new thread under this same section.

I am deeply grateful to all of you for helping show me again the path I had thought I had lost, but indeed was always beneath me.

Deep Bows, Fred
 
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