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Katie_Kilbane
Guest
Hello and thanks for the nice welcome. It may sound trite, but I was searching for a feeling of real peace and sure knowledge of truth that I just didn’t find in the mysteries and dogmas of the Catholic teachings or anywhere else that I looked.Greetings Sister
Welcome to the CAF!
May I ask why you left the Catholic faith?
After reading the Qur’aan I found that it did not contradict what I already accepted as true about the Almighty Creator, His angels, His Books, His prophets, The resurrection and heaven and hell, and the Divine Decree. - It really clarified all of that for me and clarified every misconception and uncertainty that I had from my Catholic upbringing.
Thank you for asking and being respectful - Have a nice day!
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Augustine3
Guest
You’re welcome
You know, I used to think when trying to find the truth, you must be 100% objective and shouldn’t let your personal feelings get in the way. Then I realised I was wrong after listening to our beloved Holy Father blessed John Paul II. He said the truth must be objective, there’s no doubt about it. But we must all relate to it in our own personal experience (subjective). We must be able to see the truth and say within our heart of hearts “yes that’s it! I know it to be true. I can relate to it”.
I’m detecting that’s how you found your faith in Islam. As much as I would love for you to come back home to your Catholic family, at the same time I wish you well in your faith.
God’s blessings be upon you
Peace in Christ.
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MartinJordan
Guest
The trouble for me in this thinking is that Pope John Paul II, was he talking about those who were Christians then saw the “truth” and left? Unlikely right?
MJ
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Augustine3
Guest
I guess it works both ways. A person cannot embrace Christianity without having some sort of subjective experience as our relationship with Jesus is personal. The objective truth will remain the truth but without a personal experience the truth will remain alien.
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MartinJordan
Guest
This is a great answer!
My issue here however, is for someone who claims they were Catholic can believe in a book (supposedly God sent) and then say they found peace from this book is not so much experiential and not an encounter, imho. I would be very careful to suddenly disclaim a 2000 year old faith. Salvation is at stake here (if it doesn’t fall in to the point of “through no fault of their own”).
MJ
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Katie_Kilbane
Guest
Hello,This is a great answer!
My issue here however, is for someone who claims they were Catholic can believe in a book (supposedly God sent) and then say they found peace from this book is not so much experiential and not an encounter, imho. I would be very careful to suddenly disclaim a 2000 year old faith. Salvation is at stake here (if it doesn’t fall in to the point of “through no fault of their own”).
MJ
I don’t mean to interrupt, but I would like to mention that the reason I was Catholic was because I was raised that way - it wasn’t a choice I made.
As a newborn infant I was baptized, obviously not by choice. Then I went to Catholic school 1-8 where I don’t remember having regular religion classes or learning much about my beliefs. Well, in the early grades I remember learning that the books of the Old Testament were compiled from four sources and that is why we found some contradictions in some of the stories, especially about Noah and the Flood. But we didn’t learn about the compilation of the New Testament and I always thought that the four gospel writers were four of the twelve apostles.
2nd grade was an important year as I got to make First Confession and receive First Communion - again neither of those were by choice, it was what my parents and grandparents wanted for me and as an 8 year old child still needing support, guidance and a sense of security from the ones I loved the most, I was eager to earn their approval and make them proud of me. I was more interested in going shopping with my mother and picking out a beautiful white dress and veil, the lovely cake my mother had ordered for me and the big party (in my honor) that we would have after the service. As for Confession, it was always awkward for me. Why did I have to ask another human to forgive my sins? I felt more comfortable and at peace praying directly to God and asking Him for forgiveness.
In 8th grade we had Confirmation. We were told to read the stories of the saints and choose one to emulate and take their name for our confirmation name - I loved to read the stories of pious people and that is what I remember most about confirmation – not so much confirming the faith I had been given at baptism or receiving the Holy Spirit because I never felt "touched by the Holy Spirit” – it bothered me a little that I couldn’t feel the holy spirit, but I just focused on the aspects of my religion that resonated with me - the love and Mercy of God, the pious life of Jesus and the shining examples of his acts of kindness, the submission and humility of Mother Mary…
I had 2 years at all girl catholic high school but after sophomore year I switched to the public school. In my junior and senior years I took part in a Catholic retreat for young adults, but again - the focus wasn’t so much on our religion and why we believed what we believed - instead we got to sing and dance in our version of “godspell”, play games, say a lot of nice things about one another (no animosity whatsoever) and stay up late eating junk food - and the best part (at the time) was that it was co-ed! A co-ed (albeit chaperoned) camping trip and sleepover!
When I was in college I drifted more away from Catholicism (didn’t regularly attend mass) but I still believed in God and Jesus and Mother Mary, and in the lives and righteous works of the saints.
Eventually it got to the point where I didn’t consider myself very religious but I definitely considered myself “spiritual.”
With regards to my family, as long as I was a kind and good person, attended mass with my parents when they asked me to, (at least Christmas and Easter, weddings, and funerals), said grace and the sign of the cross before meals when I ate with them … well it was good enough and everyone was okay with that…
Anyways, I apologize for the long reply, I just wanted to make clear that my being Catholic wasn’t by choice, it was the religion of my parents and their parents. It meant doing what I was told to do (as regards the rituals of mass and prayers) and believing what I was told to believe.
Set in stone traditions that I accepted without question until I asked myself: “What is the purpose of life, and what do I truly believe in.” After much searching and many mistakes, I found my answer in Islam.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Hi. Appreciate you trying to explain but it is VERY clear you were NOT Catechized well. You’re views are basically very ill informed about Catholicism and it is a very severe and critical point.
However, I don’t want to further deviate from this thread. You have made a choice. I will accept it because you deserve to live your life (and God who is Merciful is the supreme Judge not me).
MJ
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Katie_Kilbane
Guest
This is your opinion (and a very strong one I might add) and one you came to just by reading the little bit of information I gave above. So my views are ill informed because I questioned what I was told to believe and was not satisfied with the answers I was given? To me that is not a fair conclusion but as you said:
To you your way and to me mine - we will both act on what we believe to be the truth and await Gods Judgement on us in the end.
I ask Almighty God to guide us all to the Straight Path and on the Straight Path.
J
jimkhong
Guest
Hi Katie
Sorry for the late reply and thank you for being on this forum. I hope your presence here will enrich us all, inform our perception of your chosen religion and appreciate our own better.
On your Quranic quote you included, I would like to point out that it would not make a difference to a mainstream Christian though of course we should respect how it form the basis of your faith. This is due to the reasons I have laid out in my earlier posts dealing with the fundamental difference between Christian and Islamic views of relvelation, which I presume you have read.
This difference lead to very divergent views between mainstream Christian and Islamic (& fundamental Christian) views of of scriptural study. I draw attention to two particualr ways they differ: (i) study of the scriptures; and (ii) justification of the scriptures.
Study of the Scriptures
As Muslims believe the Quran is directly authored by God in the Arabic language, Quranic studies are focussed on what the Arabic words mean. This include the history of the language, the philology and way the words were used. In Islam, it is not possible to study the historical context of the Quran as the Quan exists outside of human history. There is no deeper meaning to the Quran other than what the words state.
In mainstream Christianity, Bible Study involves a study of the historical background of the author when writing that particular book, the cultural and social-religious world of his audience and, most importantly, the God-inspired message that the author intended. We call this hermeunetics and exegesis.
Interestingly, a Jesuit priest, who worked very closely with Muslim scholars in Cairo (apparently, he was so respected that he was allowed to see Mecca from a nearby hill but not allowed to enter it), told me that the Muslims scholars occassionally requested him to study certain parts of the Quran using hermenuetics since they themselves could not do it (I presume they realise their personal relaitonship with the Quran precludes any objective study of the Quran in that manner).
In addition, Christians also read the Bible with our hearts to discern the personal message God has for us and guide our actions for the particular issue we may face. This message is personal and is sometimes not apparent to other Christians. Among Muslims, this practice is common only among Sufis. Formal Quranic interpretation among non-Sufis is always communal, as determined by learned Sunni muftis and Shia ayatollas, with opinions often issued using fatwas.
Justification of the scriptures
For Musims, the Quran justify itself. It cliaims itself to be true and so therefore it is, because God himself wrote it. You can read the original Quran in paradise. In that sense, the Quran existed before Islam There is no necessity to look for any justification for its authenticity outside the Quran. The Quran is complete in itself.
The Church however existed before the Bible. It was the Church who discerned which books are worthy to be included based on whether the message they bear are in line with the faith that the Chruch has received. At different points in history, different commandments of the Bible may no longer be relevant to the Christian community (eg., Mosaic dietary laws are no longer followed by almost all Christians) due to changes in the culture and society. The Church uses the gifts of wisdom and reason to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern how to understand the Bible and how to use it to live out our lives. So, therefore, we believe the Bible is true because it aligns with our values and how we believe we are to lead our lives.
So therefore in your post, you appeal to the Quran for its own authenticity, which is a basis that appeals only to fundamentalist (a better label would probably be literalist) Christians. That is not a basis that mainstream Christians would use to determine the authenticity of a scripture.
If we apply our way of hermeunetics to the study of the Quran, we would conclude on the historical influences on Mohammad. As with any scientific methods (and historical methods are similar), there is no absolutes and only varying degrees likelihood (from the theory of gravity at one extreme to theories of a flat earth on the other). So, I am not saying that there were certainly Gnostics influence on Mohammad but you can see the may’s and could’s that litter my post.
May God continue to bless your faith journey.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Katie, my point to all this is that isn’t a book that has all the answers. When it comes to Christ, he was a person. My Faith revolves around Jesus (the historical Jesus) who was 100% man and 100% divine (God) and the Church he built 2000 years ago.
Ive infact shared my experiences being brought in a Catholic family (and after reading your testimony to embrace Islam) felt I had to state my testimony. It’s almost an paradox. If you wish comment anything you can go here (Truth and Faith):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11726725&postcount=18
Peace be with you.
MJ
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FierceDefender
Guest
First and foremost, All praises are due to ALLAH the Creator, the King of all kings, the Master of all masters, non is worthy of worship but Him and Him alone, and Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him and his family was a slave and the final messenger of ALLAH, and lastly I bear witness that Jesus, Isa in Arabic, is the messenger of ALLAH.
I read the first post by the OP;
As I do not want to spend all night reading through the whole thread, if I may add - this is the danger of copy and paste style of study that we have become accustomed to.
I suggest that you actually study the tafseer of the Noble Qu’ran before copying a verse and making up your own understanding of it without spending your life on understanding it like the scholars of the past and the present scholars.
Just a quick one regarding that the Qu’ran castigated who did not believe in the story.
You have to understand that this ayat (verse) was sent down to let us know that He, the King of all kings, the creator of the seven heavens, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala will question the Messengers about the nations to whom He sent them answered and responded to their teachings. It’s not just to say “you are disbelievers” with no purpose but just to label people.
Anyways, Unfortunately I just wouldn’t like to waste time on reading ayats and surahs being misused and having a person who has never studied the tafseer of the Noble Qu’ran make up his own understanding.
If you do have questions regarding Islam, the true Islam, by following the Qu’ran and following the sunnah of our beloved prophet Muhammad salallahu alaiyhi wa sallam
DO NOT HESITATE to message me.
For any mistake I have said is of my fault and anything correct is from the King of kings, Master of masters, Leader of leaders, your creator and my creator, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala …
I read the first post by the OP;
As I do not want to spend all night reading through the whole thread, if I may add - this is the danger of copy and paste style of study that we have become accustomed to.
I suggest that you actually study the tafseer of the Noble Qu’ran before copying a verse and making up your own understanding of it without spending your life on understanding it like the scholars of the past and the present scholars.
Just a quick one regarding that the Qu’ran castigated who did not believe in the story.
You have to understand that this ayat (verse) was sent down to let us know that He, the King of all kings, the creator of the seven heavens, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala will question the Messengers about the nations to whom He sent them answered and responded to their teachings. It’s not just to say “you are disbelievers” with no purpose but just to label people.
Anyways, Unfortunately I just wouldn’t like to waste time on reading ayats and surahs being misused and having a person who has never studied the tafseer of the Noble Qu’ran make up his own understanding.
If you do have questions regarding Islam, the true Islam, by following the Qu’ran and following the sunnah of our beloved prophet Muhammad salallahu alaiyhi wa sallam
DO NOT HESITATE to message me.
For any mistake I have said is of my fault and anything correct is from the King of kings, Master of masters, Leader of leaders, your creator and my creator, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala …
J
jimkhong
Guest
Welcome FierceDefender.
To avoid any posible allegations that you have jumped to conclusions just by reading the headlines (much like Islamophobes do), which I am sure you have not, may I propose that you read through the thread to determine whether the suggestions were advanced out of a total ignorance of Islam. Otherwise, your arguments could run the possibility of being sounded out in an echo chamber with only one occupant.
God bless.
To avoid any posible allegations that you have jumped to conclusions just by reading the headlines (much like Islamophobes do), which I am sure you have not, may I propose that you read through the thread to determine whether the suggestions were advanced out of a total ignorance of Islam. Otherwise, your arguments could run the possibility of being sounded out in an echo chamber with only one occupant.
God bless.
F
FierceDefender
Guest
Have you studied the tafseer of the Qu’ran? Even if I read through all these, unfortunately my knowledge on the tafseer of the Qu’ran is limited and I am admitting that, because I would rather keep my mouth shut than to say things and spread wrong information about Islam, the final message and guidance for mankind.
What I refuted was the last ayat you posted on your first post, not the whole post entirely, as like I said, I do not want to waste more time on a thread with little knowledge on the tafseer and just a copy and paste job.
May ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala guide you, for whomever ALLAH guides non can misguide and whomever He leaves astray non can guide.
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