God and Free Will

[lakotak]

I was wondering something. If a person, lets say, points a gun at another and pulls the trigger, has that person followed through on his/her free will and would God be able to stop the consequences of the person dying from the bullet without interfering with the free will action of the person at that point? Any thoughts?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Sure. The gun could jam. The gunman’s free will isn’t hampered.

 

[lakotak]

Sure. The gun could jam. The gunman’s free will isn’t hampered.

It just makes me wonder, if God can control the consequences without interfering with man’s free will, then I wonder why He does allow so much evil to be done in the world and individual lives when he could stop it.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Essentially because suffering brings forth the suffering of Christ in His children. Which means grace is delivered to the world through Christ’s suffering servants. In a mystical way, participating in the sufferings of Christ (as Paul and Peter phrased it), brings about salvation for the elect. Christ’s Passion extends through His entire Body, which is the Church (cf. Col 1:24). This is very difficult for us to understand, especially when we are in the midst of suffering. But we know He showed us the way, carried the cross first, and showed us how Resurrection is at the end of the road to Calvary.

What you ask is the age-old question of mankind.

 

[lakotak]

Essentially because suffering brings forth the suffering of Christ in His children. Which means grace is delivered to the world through Christ’s suffering servants. In a mystical way, participating in the sufferings of Christ (as Paul and Peter phrased it), brings about salvation for the elect. Christ’s Passion extends through His entire Body, which is the Church (cf. Col 1:24). This is very difficult for us to understand, especially when we are in the midst of suffering. But we know He showed us the way, carried the cross first, and showed us how Resurrection is at the end of the road to Calvary.

What you ask is the age-old question of mankind.

Thanks for the insight, MarcoPolo.

 

[Big_Ro]

Really nice explanation, I look forward to the day when I know scripture well enough to provide such ans excellent response.

Having said that, I think one of the reasons we struggle to understand why we suffer or why tragedies are allowed to occur is that we are only capable of understanding through our human mind. We can’t really know what God’s true purpose may be in any particular situation. We tend, I think, to look at God like a parent that is supposed to make all our boo-boos go away. (I don’t mean to make light of the sufferings that so many experience especially at present.) What I’m saying is that God provides adveristy in our life sometimes for very good reasons. Maybe there’s something were supposed to learn or gain (like character and courage) or maybe were supposed to provide an example for someone else and maybe it’s supposed to lead us to some vocation. How many people after having undergone some trial turned it into a life calling to provide help and support to others in a similar situation. I try not to focus on why God chooses to put good and difficult blessings in my life. I ask for strength and wisdom and look for the lesson. Just my 2 cents.

 

[lakotak]

Really nice explanation, I look forward to the day when I know scripture well enough to provide such ans excellent response.

Having said that, I think one of the reasons we struggle to understand why we suffer or why tragedies are allowed to occur is that we are only capable of understanding through our human mind. We can’t really know what God’s true purpose may be in any particular situation. We tend, I think, to look at God like a parent that is supposed to make all our boo-boos go away. (I don’t mean to make light of the sufferings that so many experience especially at present.) What I’m saying is that God provides adveristy in our life sometimes for very good reasons. Maybe there’s something were supposed to learn or gain (like character and courage) or maybe were supposed to provide an example for someone else and maybe it’s supposed to lead us to some vocation. How many people after having undergone some trial turned it into a life calling to provide help and support to others in a similar situation. I try not to focus on why God chooses to put good and difficult blessings in my life. I ask for strength and wisdom and look for the lesson. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks Big Ro, your 2 cents is appreciated. What you say has a lot of meaning and I think we do look on God as a parent and will make our boo-boos go away instead of be there to teach us what we need to learn to please Him and our fellow man.I think we see God in the eyes of a child that expects a parent to keep us from falling down instead of picking us up and putting us back on our feet.

 

[jpjd]

Another thing to consider is this: If God intervened everytime someone’s free will caused suffering to themselves or another person, or if God intervened everytime the consequences of living in a world fallen and imperfect through sin appeared, how would we ever learn cause and effect? The moral law could never be stated because the consequences for breaking these laws would never show themselves.

For example, if you had hate in your heart but no one was ever hurt by it, then is hate still bad?

 

[lakotak]

Another thing to consider is this: If God intervened everytime someone’s free will caused suffering to themselves or another person, or if God intervened everytime the consequences of living in a world fallen and imperfect through sin appeared, how would we ever learn cause and effect? The moral law could never be stated because the consequences for breaking these laws would never show themselves.

For example, if you had hate in your heart but no one was ever hurt by it, then is hate still bad?

This is a good point too. Never thought about it in this way. Thanks.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I was wondering something. If a person, lets say, points a gun at another and pulls the trigger, has that person followed through on his/her free will and would God be able to stop the consequences of the person dying from the bullet without interfering with the free will action of the person at that point? Any thoughts?

Great question. It is a good thing ponder these things. Here is something to think about in regards to your wonderful question.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8

 

[lakotak]

Great question. It is a good thing ponder these things. Here is something to think about in regards to your wonderful question.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8

Thanks for your insight. The Holy Spirit works through people so many times to help others gain an understanding of the things of God. Each person’s insight has made me think and understand just a little better this complex issue of man’s suffering. Thank you and the Holy Spirit. I welcome and appreciate any insights from the great minds on this forum.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thanks for your insight. The Holy Spirit works through people so many times to help others gain an understanding of the things of God. Each person’s insight has made me think and understand just a little better this complex issue of man’s suffering. Thank you and the Holy Spirit. I welcome and appreciate any insights from the great minds on this forum.

Thanks for the kind words. I don’t think we have great minds, but rather all Christians have the mind of Christ.

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ
1 Cor 2

 

[lakotak]

Thank you 2ndAdam,

I am beginning to rely on the Holy Spirit more now, than at any time in the past. I have been drawn to this and I am becoming more comfortable with this as times goes by.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thank you 2ndAdam,

I am beginning to rely on the Holy Spirit more now, than at any time in the past. I have been drawn to this and I am becoming more comfortable with this as times goes by.

We know a wonderful and gracious God whom we can put all our hope and trust in!

 

[crazzeto]

Great question. It is a good thing ponder these things. Here is something to think about in regards to your wonderful question.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8

All true, but as we’re discussing over in the “absolute security thread”, again the Spirit isn’t going to go as far as forcing you to not pull the trigger. You always have that free will choice, even though as you clearly point out the spirit will in fact remind you doing so will put you in a most terrible state of mortal sin.

So in answer to the question, if you pull the trigger then the respocibility lay with you. I’ll again provide you with the same biblical passage I provided in the other thread to demonstrate, this is again just before the first celebration of the Eucharist in Mark 14:

drbo.org/chapter/48014.htm

18 And when they were at table and eating, Jesus saith: Amen I say to you, one of you that eateth with me shall betray me. 19 But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? 20 Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish.

21 And the Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born.

That is one heck of an inditement, notice how even though Judas is in fact doing what God knows will be done he doesn’t just get off scott free here. The reason is Judas’s free will, God does account for your free will acceptance or rejection of the covenant.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I read you last two postings on free will as you requested. I’m not sure what to say about them.