God and Guilt?

[jax8686]

i have a question regarding indulgences and purgatory(although not explicitly about those)

how do you explain to a protestant why we are still guilty (or have guilt) from sins after we have been forgiven, ive been asked that “isnt guilt a feeling” and “isnt guilt a way of satan bringing us down?”

obviously purgatory cleans up guilt, and indulgences reduce guilt/purgatory time, but why would a forgiving God still hold us in guilt?

 

[mosher]

We are not held in guilt rather we are making recompense to satisfy justice. Remember that God is both all merciful and all just. Think of an analogy from childhood when a parent forgave you but you still had to sit in time out or whatever.

 

[aridite]

Technically, pennance, Purgatory and indulgences do not make up for guilt, but for the temporal punishment due to the damaging effects of sin. The most important sense of “guilt” is not feeling bad for sinning and offending God, but the actual offense given to God. The bad feeling just comes from recognizing that we have damaged or destroyed our relationship with God. You can be guilty of offending God, but not feel guilty (as in the case of those who have deadened their consciences and don’t even recognize that what they are doing is sinful). You can have guilt for offending God without “guilt” (the feeling). The only thing that takes away our guilt for offending God is the sacrifice of Jesus.

But in addition to causing our guilt, sin also causes us to be sinners, i.e. to develop a sinful nature, and to harm others. By lying, we offend God (incur guilt), but also make ourselves liars and hurt those we lie to. These are the temporal effects (because they are in time), and so temporal punishment is due. Jesus’s blood takes away the guilt, but the damaging effects of our sin to ourselves and others needs to be made up for by growing in virtue. This can be painful, and prayer (our own and others) and suffering (our own and others) helps undo the damage. Souls in purgatory are save through Jesus from the guilt of their sin, but are suffering to make up the damage; they are suffering temporal punishment. Pennance and indulgences, prayers and suffering of others, can make up for the temporal punishments that others owe, both here on Earth and in Purgatory. As Paul says, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Col 1:24).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m not one to wait to find out what something is like, so I started my “purgatory” some time back.

When you go through the spiritual journey and are influenced as in the Dark Night, as you become perfected you undergo “contemplative purgation.” I believe this is what accounts for my occasional angry outbursts even though I’m about 99% over my anger, judgment, and the like. The changes this has brought about has given me enormous peace, and I’m sure that purgatory does nothing different than that.

Instead of thinking of purgatory as punishment, I just look at it as a final purge of worldly B.S. to perfect and heal our souls.

Personally I am not a big fan of intervening in purgatory. Some people pray for the souls in purgatory and the like, which is fine but really I think they are in good hands, and I really don’t envision any kind of suffering.

As far as indulgences and the like, I’m very skeptical about all that. At the risk of being as wrong about this as I have about other things in the past, frankly I think a lot of that is intellectual masturbation. We’re trying to quantify purgatory and use it as a manipulative tool that increases the complexity of the basic “good you go to heaven” and “bad you go to hell” rewards and threats and cloud everything in hopelessly complicated and vague mathematical and psychological terms so that the “experts” maintain an upper hand. I mean, if purgatory is a place of preparation, then how does a generic prayer from a stranger help God along so He can get it done quicker? If it is somewhere that somehow our suffering or waiting is relieved, then there must be a punitive aspect to purgatory or why would God be dragging it out anyway? I figure if we suffer it’s just our own soul squinting into the Light of Truth that God shines upon it, as the dark recesses become illuminated and all this worldly false self the soul has gained in this carnal life is dismantled by God. Every person does go at a different rate, whether purgation is on earth or purgatory, I suspect, but I trust God will accomplish what He has to in me at His own rate.

Of course I could be totally wrong. I just make stuff up as I go, and when I’m feeling confident and anxious to be annoying, I sometimes make snide remarks when my wife talks about some prayer that’s supposed to help souls in purgatory. At prayer time if our kids pray for the lost souls in purgatory, I keep it zipped. That isn’t the time for scholarly discussion.

Alan