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Fauken
Guest
If I understand Hell correctly, it is the total absence of the presence and hope of God. If God is omnipresent, how can He be absent? Is it by the choice of the damned or His own way of doing so?
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Personally I don’t think God is totally absent, even from Hell. Otherwise the "mild"sinners would suffer just as much as the most evil tyrant, since there would be no restraints on what the devil could do to his prisoners.
I’m not a Calvinist, but I agree with him that Satan is the “minister of (God’s) wrath”. I can’t imagine God getting any pleasure out of torturing souls, so He lets the devil do it, who does enjoy it. But since that’s by way of God’s plan and authority, then He’s also responsible for what happens to the souls in Hell, and if limits are placed on their treatment.
But while I think God is present in some form, however diminished, I also accept the souls in Hell have no hope of God. They’re lost, and there’s no way out. In that respect I suppose it’s a reflection of human prisons when a person is imprisoned for life - someone who killed his wife in a fit of rage may not be under the same impositions as a serial murderer, who can’t be trusted with anybody. But he has no hope of release, of being reconciled with the society whose authority put him there.
Yet society still has responsibility for how he’s treated by wardens, fellow prisoners, kitchen staff and so on. In that sense, society is present in the prison, in very much diminished form,
Yet he has no hope of reconciliation with society. The door has slammed shut, and has been locked for the remainder of his earthly life, both from the inside and from the outside.
That’s how I see it.
I’m not a Calvinist, but I agree with him that Satan is the “minister of (God’s) wrath”. I can’t imagine God getting any pleasure out of torturing souls, so He lets the devil do it, who does enjoy it. But since that’s by way of God’s plan and authority, then He’s also responsible for what happens to the souls in Hell, and if limits are placed on their treatment.
But while I think God is present in some form, however diminished, I also accept the souls in Hell have no hope of God. They’re lost, and there’s no way out. In that respect I suppose it’s a reflection of human prisons when a person is imprisoned for life - someone who killed his wife in a fit of rage may not be under the same impositions as a serial murderer, who can’t be trusted with anybody. But he has no hope of release, of being reconciled with the society whose authority put him there.
Yet society still has responsibility for how he’s treated by wardens, fellow prisoners, kitchen staff and so on. In that sense, society is present in the prison, in very much diminished form,
Yet he has no hope of reconciliation with society. The door has slammed shut, and has been locked for the remainder of his earthly life, both from the inside and from the outside.
That’s how I see it.
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GEddie
Guest
The power of God is not absent in Hell, but the prospect of a relationship to Him is. If I understand aright.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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pianistclare
Guest
It’s about the absence of that loving relationship.
God doesn’t have to BE IN hell, to have authority over it.
God doesn’t have to BE IN hell, to have authority over it.
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Wesrock
Guest
You are correct in your objection in a technical sense. The souls in Hell would cease to exist apart from the eternal creative action of God (this is true for everything). However, those souls are as far from communion with God and the body of Christ as can be. They do not have the beatific vision of God, they do not participate in His divine life, and there may be varying degrees of punishment depending on the person.If I understand Hell correctly, it is the total absence of the presence and hope of God. If God is omnipresent, how can He be absent? Is it by the choice of the damned or His own way of doing so?
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Aloysium
Guest
I understand hell to be as much one’s relationship with God as is heaven. The difference is who or what we have made ourselves to be during the course of our lives. This includes our last seconds, during which we still have a chance to reconcile ourselves to God.
The relationship would be like a windshield. Our sins, actions which entail a rejection of love, are the grime that may accumulate. The sun through a clear glass reveals His infinite brilliance while illuminating all creation. When it shines through a dirty screen, you see nothing but overwhelming grunge.
That’s how it is in life, and all I know is life. When you’re dead, it comes to an end except for our eternal relationship with God. Eternal because we paradoxically began and will end while always existing “now”, our connection in time with the eternal.
The person whom we become through our choices in those situations that arise during the course of our lives, we are told, will be resurrected. It’s impossible to overstate how amazing and wondrous is this very serious cosmic “game”. Unlike “Monopoly” and reflecting the nature of its Creator, you “win” by giving stuff to and sharing yourself with everyone else.
The relationship would be like a windshield. Our sins, actions which entail a rejection of love, are the grime that may accumulate. The sun through a clear glass reveals His infinite brilliance while illuminating all creation. When it shines through a dirty screen, you see nothing but overwhelming grunge.
That’s how it is in life, and all I know is life. When you’re dead, it comes to an end except for our eternal relationship with God. Eternal because we paradoxically began and will end while always existing “now”, our connection in time with the eternal.
The person whom we become through our choices in those situations that arise during the course of our lives, we are told, will be resurrected. It’s impossible to overstate how amazing and wondrous is this very serious cosmic “game”. Unlike “Monopoly” and reflecting the nature of its Creator, you “win” by giving stuff to and sharing yourself with everyone else.
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Fauken
Guest
So it’s the total absence and possibility of having a relationship with God?
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Hatikvah
Guest
Well, God is omnipresent, you’re right. However, God does not choose to manifest His presence there in any meaningful way other than that He exists there: you cannot feel the Holy Spirit in Hell as we can here, whether in prayer or in our day-to-day lives.If I understand Hell correctly, it is the total absence of the presence and hope of God. If God is omnipresent, how can He be absent? Is it by the choice of the damned or His own way of doing so?
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Wesrock
Guest
Yes . . . There is room for mystery about Hell, too. And perhaps also nuance. Anyway, if I were to do a minimal definition, I’d say that those in Hell lack the beatific vision of God.So it’s the total absence and possibility of having a relationship with God?
I mentioned nuances. There is speculation on the role of limbo as being a state of hell in which the beatific vision is lacking, and in which there may even be some good, but still no beatific vision. Then there are those who, by their actions, fall into eternal punishment, too. But these are speculative possibilities, if I understand it right. We don’t know some things.
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e_c
Guest
If something exists, it is because of God’s power. This is essentially what “omnipresence” means… that God has power over it, and has caused its existence, and that it participates in His Being inasmuch as it exists.
So no, your assumption is incorrect. God indeed is present in Hell. Note too the psalmist: “Behold, if I descend into the depths, you are there.”
On the other hand, we do not personally commune with God in Hell. That is what makes it Hell.
So no, your assumption is incorrect. God indeed is present in Hell. Note too the psalmist: “Behold, if I descend into the depths, you are there.”
On the other hand, we do not personally commune with God in Hell. That is what makes it Hell.
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o_mlly
Guest
In our temporal life to be in a state of sanctifying grace is to have the life of the Trinity within us. If we are in a state of mortal sin then the Trinity cannot abide life within us. While in the temporal life we can remedy the absence of God in us by a change of heart. Change can only take place in time. If we die in mortal sin then we enter eternity without the life of God in us. That is hell.If I understand Hell correctly, it is the total absence of the presence and hope of God. If God is omnipresent, how can He be absent? Is it by the choice of the damned or His own way of doing so?
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sonofbarry
Guest
It has been regularly said in this forum that people “choose” hell through their unrepentant sinfulness.
It’s not actually a place of eternal punishment. God does not send you there; you choose to go there. It’s just being “removed from the beatific vision.”
In that case, the damned soul is not too badly placed: he chose this fate, doesn’t care about beatific visions anyway, and there’s no actual punishment. It’s just another type of eternal life, only with God removed. If you were an unrepentant sinner, why would you care?
It’s not actually a place of eternal punishment. God does not send you there; you choose to go there. It’s just being “removed from the beatific vision.”
In that case, the damned soul is not too badly placed: he chose this fate, doesn’t care about beatific visions anyway, and there’s no actual punishment. It’s just another type of eternal life, only with God removed. If you were an unrepentant sinner, why would you care?
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e_c
Guest
Because there are likely physical torments in Hell and also one realizes what he has lost. And yet he will not repent… his will is confirmed in its choice, after being able to deliberate for a lifetime.It has been regularly said in this forum that people “choose” hell through their unrepentant sinfulness.
It’s not actually a place of eternal punishment. God does not send you there; you choose to go there. It’s just being “removed from the beatific vision.”
In that case, the damned soul is not too badly placed: he chose this fate, doesn’t care about beatific visions anyway, and there’s no actual punishment. It’s just another type of eternal life, only with God removed. If you were an unrepentant sinner, why would you care?
Look at the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
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