God and Suffering [edited]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Benedict_Broere
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Benedict_Broere

Guest
Can we still think of God as the Almighty in correspondence with the suffering that is inherent in a world that is inhabited by beings that can suffer? A world with mass extinctions in the distant past, and with massive catastrophes (Auschwitz) in the not that distant past, and with terrible deceases, calamity’s and horrible crime by psychopats? Or is our notion of God too much ourselves speaking in the face of actually an enigma? See the interesting lecture by reverend Tom Honey. blog.ted.com/2007/04/rev_tom_honey_o.php
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Can we still think of God as the Almighty in correspondence with the suffering that is inherent in a world that is inhabited by beings that can suffer? A world with mass extinctions in the distant past, and with massive catastrophes (Auschwitz) in the not that distant past, and with terrible deceases, calamity’s and horrible crime by psychopats? Or is our notion of God too much ourselves speaking in the face of actually an enigma? See the interesting lecture by reverend Tom Honey. blog.ted.com/2007/04/rev_tom_honey_o.php
Click to expand...
I rather see it as an attempt to rationalize the bad by saying “Well, at least heaven is perfect and I’ll get to go there”. Once you go that far and consider heaven as perfect, you have to ask yourself why isn’t Earth perfect, and then you have the problem you’ve mentioned. People can come up with their own opinions on the matter (and they are numerous well thought out) but they all depend on many presumptions. I think the real root of the problem is why can/should a perfect heaven exist when Earth stands in stark contrast. This is further confounded by the fact that heaven isn’t supposed to be another dimension… Jesus is (from what I understand from the actual scripture) supposed to come back HERE to set up his kingdom and the earth BECOMES heaven.
 
As I’m sure you know, many post-modern theologians (and ordinary religious!) conclude that the concept of a personal, interventionist God (i.e. a being somewhat in our own image) is incompatible with the suffering in the world. It has been said that this concept of God is dead and that we need to return to the concept of God as ineffable, unknown and beyond all of our own ideas about him. This, fortunately, is compatible with Catholic theologians such as Aquinas and Denys who would not recognise the fundamentalist ‘known’ God who is current in many discussions and worshipped by many religious people. Karen Armstrong’s latest book The Case for God discusses this in much detail and I highly recommend it.
 
The same argument against God because of evil is the argument against the existence of goodness. If evil exists, than good cannot exist. But such an argument is futile. So you can’t say God dosen’t exist because evil exists.

The same argument against God because of distasters and extinctions is the argument against Nature. If disasters and extinctions exist, than Nature cannot exist. But such an argument is futile. So you can’t say God dosen’t exist because disastees and extinctions exist.
 
Hi Eurcharisted,

The argument isn’t saying that God does not exist. It is rather saying that one conception of God is incompatible with what we see around us.

We have to admit that although we can say some things about God - eternal, good, perfect, the creator of all things. There are other things that we don’t know and cannot be demonstrated i.e. interventionist and personal.
 
Fran65 said:
We have to admit that although we can say some things about God - eternal, good, perfect, the creator of all things. There are other things that we don’t know and cannot be demonstrated i.e. interventionist and personal.
Click to expand...
I can’t call God good if God is the reason the experience of being requires justice. If I’m understanding right.
 
Fran65 said:
Could you explain this further for me please?
Click to expand...
My take on the argument goes; creation seems to lack good. Either because God didn’t will creation to be good or He couldn’t. God is evil either way. My experience of being human lacks what it ought. God is the reason. A creation/ creature that requires justice. A victim of God. A God that is the reason justice is required. Not good.
 
Benadam said:
creation seems to lack good. Either because God didn’t will creation to be good or He couldn’t. God is evil either way. My experience of being human lacks what it ought. God is the reason. A creation/ creature that requires justice. A victim of God. A God that is the reason justice is required. Not good.
Click to expand...
That is painful. I hear you. There is a lot of suffering in the world. I don’t think that this means that it is ‘not good’ though. It is hard to weigh up whether suffering outweighs the good, but it does not mean that the good does not exist. There is both beauty and good in the world - the way that ecosystems work together for example is ‘good’; the love of a parent for a child or of one person for another is also good. The way the seasons work, the way crops grow…all good.

The other thing that I would dispute is whether God is the reason for your experience of lack. A lot of what happens in the world is the result of other people, not of God. Much other suffering is the result of living in a physical world (hurricanes, earthquakes, drought etc) with physical bodies - they get sick, age and die. My personal understanding (and I can’t substantiate this) is that God has created the best of all possible worlds, and that He doesn’t intervene directly. My ‘task’ then is to make the best of this world and this body and to maintain a sense of meaning & faith - neither of these is easy.

As for wanting justice - a group of Jews and a Rabbi in a concentration camp put God on trial, declared Him guilty and condemned Him to death - then went to prayers. What else are we going to do? I don’t see scientific materialism as an adequate alternative, nor is atheism…

I’ll come back to your other post later, as I have to get going…
 
I think God is more of an artist, poet, inventor, mathematician, then an almighty ruler. And in general I agree with Tom Honey that we in fact really don’t know what God is. Though in certain experience God is my everything.
 
Benedict_Broere said:
Can we still think of God as the Almighty in correspondence with the suffering that is inherent in a world that is inhabited by beings that can suffer?
Click to expand...
The mere fact that there is suffering in the world does not prove that God is not Almighty. How could all suffering be avoided? And is all suffering useless? If not, why do you think there is too much suffering in the world?
 
Suffering. I am a Leukemia survivor. One of the most interesting works I have read on this subject is Pope John Paul II’s Salvifici Doloris (On Human Suffering). It was appropriate not just for Catholics but for all humanity in general. I had an opportunity to not only read it, but outline it, and present it for the apologetics class at one of the local parishes in my area. The man who heads up the class thought my Leukemia testimony might add something to the mix. We all agreed that it was such a powerful, as well as ecumenical, encyclical that it was apporopriate for non-Catholic Christians as well. If anyone has a chance to read it, I would highly recommend it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top