God as 'Father' - not sure how this is realistic?

[tonyd79]

“Our Father, who art in heaven”

I really struggle with the concept of God as (good) father or really the concept of a loving, Personal, God at all.

I think in a way, man needs God and God is a part of what man is. His dignity and special position in the universe as well as all of his natural rights depend on the existence of a God. Worshipping God is a natural good thing to do. We don’t worship God because he needs to be worshipped, we worship him because it is in our nature. It’s about us.

I’m not saying that I believe God doesn’t exist, without God there is no I. I understand some philosophies and even religions teach there is no I, but I’d like to believe that I exist.

So yes, God is our father in the same way we have human fathers. I have children and I’m not always the best dad. Sometimes I screw up and say things and act poorly and the kids forgive me. They do that because it’s in their nature to adore and respect their father. They know I love them but even if I didn’t kids still need their parents.

We need God, we really do. But is he a just, loving father?

I see nothing in this world that suggests that God is a fair, loving, personally interested entity that loves us individually. Some people’s lives are filled with pain and suffering of the worst kind. And please don’t say suffering makes us holy, because most of the time it doesn’t. Most of the time misery is just misery. I grew up fairly poor but I had friends that were poorer. I don’t want to go too far off topic though.

The only way around this dillema is this- perhaps God is so transcendent, so other, that ‘His ways are not our ways’ meaning our individual day to day lives don’t really matter?

Does happiness and enlightenment then, come from detachment to all material things and re-aligning our souls with what God really is?

The problem with this is it eventually turns into Buddhism, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a real fully fledged religion just because it doesn’t really have a God in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word.

It still doesn’t answer the question how God is a Father. I don’t think Jesus saw God as an absent father, but in the end, he did cry on the cross “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”. Absent father perhaps, definitely “Our Father”, but good, kind, loving Father?

I’m just not seeing it.

 

[Techno2000]

“Our Father, who art in heaven”

I really struggle with the concept of God as (good) father or really the concept of a loving, Personal, God at all.

I think in a way, man needs God and God is a part of what man is. His dignity and special position in the universe as well as all of his natural rights depend on the existence of a God. Worshipping God is a natural good thing to do. We don’t worship God because he needs to be worshipped, we worship him because it is in our nature. It’s about us.

I’m not saying that I believe God doesn’t exist, without God there is no I. I understand some philosophies and even religions teach there is no I, but I’d like to believe that I exist.

So yes, God is our father in the same way we have human fathers. I have children and I’m not always the best dad. Sometimes I screw up and say things and act poorly and the kids forgive me. They do that because it’s in their nature to adore and respect their father. They know I love them but even if I didn’t kids still need their parents.

We need God, we really do. But is he a just, loving father?

I see nothing in this world that suggests that God is a fair, loving, personally interested entity that loves us individually. Some people’s lives are filled with pain and suffering of the worst kind. And please don’t say suffering makes us holy, because most of the time it doesn’t. Most of the time misery is just misery. I grew up fairly poor but I had friends that were poorer. I don’t want to go too far off topic though.

The only way around this dillema is this- perhaps God is so transcendent, so other, that ‘His ways are not our ways’ meaning our individual day to day lives don’t really matter?

Does happiness and enlightenment then, come from detachment to all material things and re-aligning our souls with what God really is?

The problem with this is it eventually turns into Buddhism, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a real fully fledged religion just because it doesn’t really have a God in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word.

It still doesn’t answer the question how God is a Father. I don’t think Jesus saw God as an absent father, but in the end, he did cry on the cross “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”. Absent father perhaps, definitely “Our Father”, but good, kind, loving Father?

I’m just not seeing it.

It will all make sense to you in the end… Faith , Hope and Charity.

Now we see only an indistinct image in a mirror, but then we will be face to face. Now what I know is incomplete, but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

1 Corinthians 13:12

 

[oppositeman]

“Our Father, who art in heaven”

I really struggle with the concept of God as (good) father or really the concept of a loving, Personal, God at all.

I think in a way, man needs God and God is a part of what man is. His dignity and special position in the universe as well as all of his natural rights depend on the existence of a God. Worshipping God is a natural good thing to do. We don’t worship God because he needs to be worshipped, we worship him because it is in our nature. It’s about us.

I’m not saying that I believe God doesn’t exist, without God there is no I. I understand some philosophies and even religions teach there is no I, but I’d like to believe that I exist.

So yes, God is our father in the same way we have human fathers. I have children and I’m not always the best dad. Sometimes I screw up and say things and act poorly and the kids forgive me. They do that because it’s in their nature to adore and respect their father. They know I love them but even if I didn’t kids still need their parents.

We need God, we really do. But is he a just, loving father?

I see nothing in this world that suggests that God is a fair, loving, personally interested entity that loves us individually. Some people’s lives are filled with pain and suffering of the worst kind. And please don’t say suffering makes us holy, because most of the time it doesn’t. Most of the time misery is just misery. I grew up fairly poor but I had friends that were poorer. I don’t want to go too far off topic though.

The only way around this dillema is this- perhaps God is so transcendent, so other, that ‘His ways are not our ways’ meaning our individual day to day lives don’t really matter?

Does happiness and enlightenment then, come from detachment to all material things and re-aligning our souls with what God really is?

The problem with this is it eventually turns into Buddhism, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a real fully fledged religion just because it doesn’t really have a God in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word.

It still doesn’t answer the question how God is a Father. I don’t think Jesus saw God as an absent father, but in the end, he did cry on the cross “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”. Absent father perhaps, definitely “Our Father”, but good, kind, loving Father?

I’m just not seeing it.

Father, the first person of the Holy Trinity, is the creator and lover of life - He creates, not only the universe but each one of us from the love in His heart. Jesus gave us the “our Father” prayer - it says - “give us this day our daily bread” - so, Father is our provider - not only of food but of all that is necessary for our earthly lives - He has arranged all this according to His Will, Many people pray to Father for earthly gifts, ie. better job etc. But from Father’s point of view, these are dangerous - they provide more than what is needed and He can see (into the future) that gifts like these help His children to become separated from Him. His gifts are those of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. He does help with worldly needs in the way of providing you with a - let’s say - a good running and safe car if you are in need of one - but not a new car - to Him that is excessive. So, in these ways, He is a Father to all His children.

Why doesn’t He help us solve our problems - individually and as a nation? He does for those who listen to Him. The vast majority of people live according to their own will, not His. Since He does not infringe upon this, His greatest gift to man, there is nothing He can do about what goes on in many lives. People are a product of their own choices. Since, when we reject God’s will in our lives, that opens the door to satan having great influence in our lives - and we can easily see the results of that - in individual lives and in the policies of governments.

You can’t live your life according to your will and then run to Father for help every once in a while when you really need it because things have gotten out of hand or didn’t turn out the way you wanted. The bible says if we put God first in our lives then all else will be given to us.

People don’t pray every day and don’t confess their sin regularly - they don’t even talk to Father - so He is a stranger in many ways. So, how can someone expect Him to help them? If you needed help - let’s say to borrow money - would you go to a friend or a stranger? So, we all need to have an everyday relationship with Father - put Him first - and He will help you. He will give you the gift of wisdom and then you will understand a great deal about our human existence and of the spiritual world. He will help in many, many ways when He sees that you have placed Him #1.

Jesus was fully God and fully human - His human side felt betrayed by His Father whom He loved deeply - that is why Jesus said what He did - He also said “I thirst” - we can be sure that since after the last supper the night before He had not had any water - nor food - and He sweated blood in the garden, again when the whipping tore His flesh, and again with the crown of thorns, and again at the crucifixion. So, it’s not hard to imagine He was very dehydrated due to the loss of blood - these are examples of Jesus’ humanity.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Well, I don’t know where your coming from or what your experiences are with fatherhood , suffering … or anything related, so it’s hard for me to speak to you about it in a meaningful way. ‘God as the Father’, is just one way we were given to help us understand our relationship to God, but it’s not the only one. I think its the most popular and maybe even the most apt way of understanding the relationship.

In my own experience, a father can do everything possible to save one of his children from suffering yet still fall short; coming only a breath away from a complete loss, or even losing the child still. So this way, I can see the analogy working. It hinges on God never removing our free will and it’s secondary consequences. God can step in, in order to make us see things clearer, but we then still have a choice as what to do next. St. Paul didn’t have to follow Christ after his revelation, but he chose to.

I think people simply underestimate, and don’t see, the cues that God drops in front of us on practically a daily basis. It reminds me of a story:

Two construction workers are building a high rise building. One is a foreman who is on the tenth floor. The other is on the ground. The foreman needs to talk to the worker on the ground but his walkie is not working. The foreman thinks, “how can I get the attention of the worker on the ground?” He decides to take a five dollar bill out of his pocket and drop it down in front of the worker on the ground so that he will look up to see where it came from. So the foreman does this. The worker on the ground sees the five dollar bill float down in front of him - picks it up - puts it in his pocket - carries on, never looking up to see where it came from. The foreman tries again with a twenty dollar bill - same result. The foreman tries again with a one hundred dollar bill - same result. The foreman, now a little frustrated, decides to drop a rock on the worker’s head in order to get him to look up. The foreman does this, and the worker on the ground looks up and says, “couldn’t you get my attention some other way!”.

 

[drforjc]

Human fatherhood is an imperfect analogy of God the Father, not the other way around.

Important distinction.

 

[tonyd79]

Thank you all for your replies.

It was mentioned that God gives the 7 gifts of the holy spirit. I’ll think more about that. Maybe that’s how he shows his Goodness to us.

 

[jaimeleglise]

God the Father has so much love that He created us to share His love.
He appeared to Moses to reveal Himself and His Ten Commandments. He saved the Jewish people from the Egyptians by making The Red Sea part. He saved Noah and his family by asking him to build an ark. He is pure love.

When Jesus died on the cross, God the Father was also offering Himself, since they are one.

When Jesus taught us The “Our Father”, he addressed God as “Daddy”.

A good book to read is “God The Father Speaks to His Children”. It describes the love He has for us, and the times He intervened in history.

 

[Reuben_J]

“Our Father, who art in heaven”
…
We need God, we really do. But is he a just, loving father?

He is a loving Father, compared to a loving father.

You get the idea … one of God’s attribute is like a father but much more than human father, He is a perfect Father in heaven. It speaks about God’s love for us and how He provides.

Our common mistake is to take Him as like our human father that provides for us. God is much more than that, He provides for our souls.

I see nothing in this world that suggests that God is a fair, loving, personally interested entity that loves us individually. Some people’s lives are filled with pain and suffering of the worst kind. And please don’t say suffering makes us holy, because most of the time it doesn’t. Most of the time misery is just misery. I grew up fairly poor but I had friends that were poorer. I don’t want to go too far off topic though.

Another common mistake of our understanding of God – He is unfair because there is suffering on earth which we do not deserve. Much of this can be explained but let’s say that God sees it from a bigger perspective, like eternity.

The only way around this dillema is this- perhaps God is so transcendent, so other, that ‘His ways are not our ways’ meaning our individual day to day lives don’t really matter?

No, it matters. It all boils down to that – what we do on earth. It matters.

Does happiness and enlightenment then, come from detachment to all material things and re-aligning our souls with what God really is?

Not in the extreme. It allows for attachment but not at the expense of our relationship with God, otherwise the reason for creation would make no sense. Material things are for our good pleasure as long as God has its paramount place in us.

The problem with this is it eventually turns into Buddhism, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a real fully fledged religion just because it doesn’t really have a God in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word.

That’s the difference. Christianity is not just a philosophy; we are dealing with a real entity, a real Being.

It still doesn’t answer the question how God is a Father. I don’t think Jesus saw God as an absent father, but in the end, he did cry on the cross “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”. Absent father perhaps, definitely “Our Father”, but good, kind, loving Father?

God is a Father in the sense He loves and provides for us, like a father who loves his child, except for God, He is the perfect Father. He is our Creator as well as our father who causes us to be born.

Jesus relationship with the Father is a mystery in that He is the second person of the Trinity. Perhaps saying that God comes down to us as a man to save us would explain this relationship in some ways.

I’m just not seeing it.

You can try if you are willing to listen to some of the explanation.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I have a problem with God as Father, due to the cruelty of my own natural father, and discouragement by the pastor I regarded (and to some extent still regard) as my spiritual father.

The night my father died in January 1979, he appeared in my bedroom (38 years ago now, and I still remember it). During the proceedings he admitted “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you!” But he also predicted “You’ll become a Christian …” and “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is to discourage you even more!”

I met the said pastor as stated above in late 1982 when I became Christian, and he apologised to me some years later not long before he died himself in January 1992, saying, “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement and all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” I then pointed out he’d just quoted my “dead” father back to me almost word for word. That shook him.

So God as Father is just a figure of speech to me.

Oh, I don’t have any argument with the Trinity, and accept it lock, stock and barrel, but in a a dogmatic, intellectual sense. Scripture teaches it, the Church teaches it, it’s in the creeds. It’s a cornerstone of Christian dogmatics.

But God as Father doesn’t mean much to me - it’s just a term.

Likewise it’s not much use looking for God’s “goodness” in this world, with its death, disasters, and widespread injustice. It’s a bit difficult trying to justify “God is good” when a tidal wave in late 2004 kiiled 300,000 people, mostly poor people, in a matter of hours.

CS Lewis in one of his essays pointed out that religious thinkers and mystics seemed to originate God’s goodness in spite of this world.

Ditto for “God is Love”. The same old pastor I mentioned above as my “spiritual” father once commented to me in his office, “I sometimes wonder if it’s true (ie. God is love). He seems to write people off pretty easily.”

I accept God’s Fatherhood by faith, and intone either the Apostles or Nicene Creed each week at mass, but in a intellectual sense. Just like I accept heaven, the beatific vision, hell and eternal torment for the damned, and the refining fire of purgatory intellectually - I haven’t seen any of them, and you probably haven’t either.

 

[ynotzap]

Our concept of God as Father is limited by our knowledge of reality and of the gift of Faith, The more we understand reality and the more we understand our faith we will more clearly understand how realistic God as Father is. By reason we can know that some higher power is active in the world and in our lives What do we have that we have not received? Who is responsible for our existence? We take so much for granted. We are provided for our physical well-being, who is responsible ultimately? Our faith (a gift) informs us that God is our Creator, who provides for our spiritual and physical well-being. He also provided His Son for our salvation, manifesting His eternal love for us. Through His Son He also provided His Holy Spirit who makes it possible to be united with Him. This makes Him ultimately “realistic”

 

[MJDorry]

I see nothing in this world that suggests that God is a fair, loving, personally interested entity that loves us individually. Some people’s lives are filled with pain and suffering of the worst kind.

Ah, the old “problem of pain”. May I suggest C.S. Lewis’s book by the same name.

I’d like to provide you with a small, tasty snippet:

“Certainly at all periods the pain and waste of human life was equally obvious. Our own religion begins among the Jews, a people squeezed between great warlike empires, continually defeated and led captive, familiar as Poland or Armenia with the tragic story of the conquered…reflect for five minutes on the fact that all the great religions were first preached, and long practiced, in a world without chloroform. At all times, then an inference from the course of events in this world to the goodness and wisdom of the Creator would have been equally preposterous…”

---

In other words, to ask a hypothetical question, in a world of constant harsh conditions, pain, death, tragedy, sorrow, when and where would people even begin to gather the notion that God is good, loving, and personal? It’s too convenient—and outright bullocks—to suppose that people concocted a vision of something “better” to get through their days when there was nothing in the world to suggest that “better” was even a possibility.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Ah, the old “problem of pain”. May I suggest C.S. Lewis’s book by the same name.

…

In other words, to ask a hypothetical question, in a world of constant harsh conditions, pain, death, tragedy, sorrow, when and where would people even begin to gather the notion that God is good, loving, and personal? It’s too convenient—and outright bullocks—to suppose that people concocted a vision of something “better” to get through their days when there was nothing in the world to suggest that “better” was even a possibility.

I’ve read CS Lewis “The Problem of Pain”, and I’ve got it on my bookshelf (along with far too many other books!).

The business of God being “Good”, as far as I know, only comes about in the Jewish tradition, and is amplified in Christianity by the assertion God came in the form of Jesus Christ, who laid down His life for the sake of men, who were made from nothing through Him (Nicene Creed - “… through him all things were made,”).

Buddhism was founded on the fact of suffering and the impermanence of things in this world. I don’t know of any claim though that God, or what passes for God in Buddhist thought, is “good”.

Islam derives it’s ideas from a mixture of Judaism and Christianity, including Arianism (which claimed

Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was created by God the Father at a point in time, is distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to the Father.

(Wikipedia). The point is though that any claim Islam makes to God’s holiness and goodness derives from other sources, namely Judaism and Christianity.

Other religions, in most cases, had a multiplicity of gods and / or spirits, and they were at pains to appease them. Ancient Greek mythology seems to have revelled in a pantheon of Gods who were every bit as capricious as their human subjects.

So any claim to God being “Good” was only found in Jewish thought, prior to Christianity, which derived from Judaism anyway. So where did they get this idea, in face of all the evidence to the contrary?

I can only assume it came out of reflection on their national experience that God was a divine being of exacting moral standards, who punished them (and other nations) for prolonged lapses. I also wonder if things used to happen in the Temple from time to time that enforced this view point.

But the fact remains that for a God who is “Good”, He tolerates an intolerable amount of evil and suffering in this world. I did one of those online quizzes last night about World War II. I got about four questions wrong out of sixty two, one of which was how many concentration camps the Nazis established in Poland.

To my surprise (to put it mildly) there were allegedly over 400 concentration camps in Poland alone. I’d heard of Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz, and a few others, but had no idea there were so many of these symbols of utter human evil.

Yet God allowed it all to happen, and fifty million people died before it came to an end. As the old pastor said, “He seems to write people off pretty easily”.

And it was the Jews, the very same people who gave us the idea “Good is good” who suffered disproportionately in this holocaust. So either God is not so good, or there’s an opposing spirit of evil who has immense power, and is determined to stamp out any reference to the original Jewish idea of God’s “goodness”.

I suppose in the end we’ll all serve one or the other.