God does not know ANYTHING

[DavidFilmer]

There is another thread being discussed, titled, " **If Jesus is truly God how can he not know what God knows?" **I want to open this thread to discuss the very premise of the question - that God “knows” everything (or anything). I think the premise is flawed, but some respected and knowledgeable Forum members seem to accept the premise at face-value.

(I’m referring to the Triune God as taught by the Catholic Church, of course)

I contend that there is really no such thing as an intellect associated with God.

There is one God in three Persons - each of whom has a unique and distinct will and intellect (and thus unique and distinct knowledge and thoughts).

At best, the intellect of God could be compared to three people in a group. What does the group “know?” It “knows” the sum total (aggregate) of the knowledge of each member (so if I asked the group a question about this aggregate, at least one member could answer).

There is no reason to expect each member to know everything that the group “knows” (and it would be kinda pointless to have such a group).

The group is not a person; it has no intellect of its own - whatever intellect we might ascribe to it is really the combined intellect of the three members. Likewise, God really has no distinct intellect (and there is no reason to speculate that the three Persons of the Trinity somehow synchronize their knowledge). Thus it is perfectly possible (and quite OK) for one Divine Person to know something that another Divine Person does not - an idea that many people in the other thread were trying to avoid.

To believe otherwise (to believe that the Divine Persons somehow share a common intellect) comes awfully close to the heresy of Sabellianism (modalism), which taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely three “modes” of a unitarian God (kinda like God has three costumes).

thoughts?

 

[prstoessel]

There are three persons in one God, not the other way around as you described. God is a nature separate from human nature. Jesus, God the Son, has both natures of being God and human and therefore is the bridge, the mediator, the way to heaven.

How can there be no intellect with God if He is the author of everything? He is not bound by time, but He created time and, therefore, understands it better than we do. His intellect, for lack of a better name, is greater than any human intellect.

You “contend” that there is no intellect associated with God. Jesus had no intellect?

I’m scratching my head on this one.

 

[JimG]

It seems rather that God is one Being. God is a spiritual infinite Being and has the faculties of intellect and will.

It is through the divine intellect that God knows himself, and in knowing himself “speaks” the divine Word, who is the son, a distinct Person but not a distinct Being.

The Son took on a human nature, and thus has both the divine intellect (as God) and a human intellect (as man.)
A human intellect is limited; a divine intellect is not.

 

[TimothyH]

There is one God in three Persons - each of whom has a unique and distinct will and intellect (and thus unique and distinct knowledge and thoughts).

At best, the intellect of God could be compared to three people in a group. What does the group “know?” It “knows” the sum total (aggregate) of the knowledge of each member (so if I asked the group a question about this aggregate, at least one member could answer).

There is no reason to expect each member to know everything that the group “knows” (and it would be kinda pointless to have such a group).

As other’s have said, God is one.

Hear, O Israel. The Lord your God is one. (Dueteronomy 6:4)

God is not the sum of his parts. All three persons of the Trinity are the fullness of the diety.

-Tim-

 

[DavidFilmer]

There are three persons in one God, not the other way around as you described.

Try as I might, I cannot see how the order affects the idea. I will accept your definition, and yet fail to see how it makes a bit of difference.

God is a nature separate from human nature. Jesus, God the Son, has both natures of being God and human and therefore is the bridge, the mediator, the way to heaven.

So you agree that the Son is different - in nature - than the Father or the Spirit. I agree. You seem to be helping me make my point, which I don’t think was your intent. If the Son can have a unique and independent nature, why not a unique and independent intellect? (the former seems to actually require the latter)

How can there be no intellect with God if He is the author of everything?

God is the author of NOTHING. Jesus (the Son, and the Word) is the author of everything.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it…
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You “contend” that there is no intellect associated with God. Jesus had no intellect?

Did you actually read my post, or did you just react to the title? I contend that the intellect of God is really the aggregate intellect of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no independent, distinct and separate divine Person known as “God” in Catholic theology (and such an idea has actually been formally and doctrinally established as heresy).

 

[prstoessel]

You seem to be helping me make my point, which I don’t think was your intent.

My intent was only to try to understand what you are saying. But thanks for that assumption.

Did you actually read my post, or did you just react to the title?

I read your post several times. Again, I was just trying to understand your point. You are not being very polite, so perhaps someone else would be willing to carry this discussion on.

 

[thenobes]

David,

This is a very complex subject; in all a mystery, that we can only understand in part and only as God reveals to us.

That being said, I will throw my limited understanding in here.

It seems to me that the Son the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same will. In addition, it is that common Divine Will that wills that the Son not reach into the total knowledge of God, but that this movement is allowed only to the Father.

Thus it can be said that Jesus does not know, not because He cannot know, but because as God He chooses not to know. In that way He is subject to the Father.

Paul says that the Holy Spirit searches out the secret things of man. If so, why is this necessary since as God He should have immediate knowledge of every man? There seems to be a limitation to the person of the Holy Spirit as well.

Just my $0.02.

peace
steve

 

[Nita]

.
…
There is one God in three Persons - each of whom has a unique and distinct will and intellect (and thus unique and distinct knowledge and thoughts). …

The above statement would be incorrect.
All the Divine attibutes proclaimed by the Church are predicated of “God” - one God.
Eg. God’s knowledge is infinite (intellect)
God, in His will, is infinite. (will)
(If you have “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ott, you can check out all the doctrines regarding God (and get references for the Church documents that declared them).

**“Unique” means being the only/sole one to have those particular characteristics; no one else comparable, or having the same.**Now, as soon as there would be something present “uniquely” in, say, the intellect of say the Son, and thus not present/contained in the intellect of the other 2 Persons, that would mean their intellects would not be infinite.

 

[Nita]

The above statement would be incorrect.
All the Divine attibutes proclaimed by the Church are predicated of “God” - one God.
Eg. God’s knowledge is infinite (intellect)
God, in His will, is infinite. (will)
(If you have “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ott, you can check out all the doctrines regarding God (and get references for the Church documents that declared them).

**“Unique” means being the only/sole one to have those particular characteristics; no one else comparable, or having the same.**Now, as soon as there would be something present “uniquely” in, say, the intellect of say the Son, and thus not present/contained in the intellect of the other 2 Persons, that would mean their intellects would not be infinite.

Sorry for the poor grammar and sentence structure in that last sentence – got interrupted and quickly hit “Submit Reply” withoutproof reading what I had typed. Should have been:

Now, as soon as there would be something present “uniquely” in the intellect of the Son (and thus not present in the other 2 Persons of the Trinity) it would mean that the knowledge/intellects of the other 2 Persons would not be infinite.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Not too many weeks ago, a priest at our church discussed the nature of the Trinity, and what he said about God sounded a lot like what the OP described as Sabellianism:

To believe otherwise (to believe that the Divine Persons somehow share a common intellect) comes awfully close to the heresy of Sabellianism (modalism), which taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely three “modes” of a unitarian God (kinda like God has three costumes).

It was the first time I had heard God described in this fashion, and I found it enlightening, but now I’m wondering how, if somebody more knowledgable than the congregants on that Sunday had charged the priest with Sabellianism he would have been able to defend himself.

What is the church actively doing about what might be a form of heresy?

 

[DavidFilmer]

It seems to me that the Son the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same will.

Yet, the will of the Son struggled with the will of the Father in the Garden:

Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.

Not many events are recorded in all four Gospels, but this is one such event (Mt. 26:39, Mk. 14:36, Lk. 22:42, Jn. 18:1).

The Church teaches that Jesus has two natures (divine and human), so one might claim that Jesus was expressing his human will that night in the Garden. But if the divine will is shared, then Jesus is really speaking of his human will in opposition to his own divine will - he would essentially be saying, “Yet not my will, but my will be done” (which sounds silly). In the plain reading of the text, Jesus attributes to the Father a distinct will apart from his own.

Besides, I am pretty sure the Church has never taught that the Father and Son share a common will. The will of the Son might be perfectly aligned with the will of the Father (which, I think, is the actual teaching of the Church), but that’s not the same as sharing a common will.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Now, as soon as there would be something present “uniquely” in the intellect of the Son (and thus not present in the other 2 Persons of the Trinity) it would mean that the knowledge/intellects of the other 2 Persons would not be infinite.

Well, let’s look at the concept of “infinite” knowledge, by way of another infinite attribute.

When we say that God is omnipotent, we sometimes say that God can do “anything.” But that’s not strictly true - what we really mean to say is that God can do anything that can possibly be done. Not even God can do the impossible. Not even God can draw a square circle.

Likewise, when we say that God is all-knowing, we really mean that God knows everything that can possibly be known. In the original thread that got me thinking about this, there was the question of whether the Son knew the Father’s plans for the last days (Jesus plainly said that he did not know these plans). If the Father is a distinct divine Person, with a distinct will and intellect, he could have a plan. The Son would have no way to know that plan unless the Father revealed it to him. Such an unrevealed plan falls into the category like that of square circles - something that cannot possibly be known.

 

[EricFilmer]

I’ve only had time to briefly skim through this thread, and my coffee break is almost over. :compcoff:

But even though I don’t have time at the moment to deeply ponder this and offer a detailed response, I will simply say that I think this thread topic can probably be addressed within the Catholic Church’s teachings concerning kenosis (please visit the link for more information).

 

[DavidFilmer]

I think this thread topic can probably be addressed within the Catholic Church’s teachings concerning kenosis.

When Jesus said that only the Father knew the timing of the end times, some have speculated that he was speaking while in human form and subject to human limitations (the state that kenosis descriibes), but that there is no such limitation in heaven.

But that’s not what I am pondering here. I wonder if there IS such a limitation in heaven — that Jesus does not know either on earth OR in heaven (because the Father has not revealed it to him).

Many people in the other thread took for granted the premise that the knowledge possessed by “God” is no different than the knowledge possessed by the Father, Son, or Spirit - that there is somehow a shared (or, at least, synchronized) knowledge, and each knows everything the other knows.

I don’t think that premise can be supported in Catholic theology, and I actually believe it is contrary to doctrine. The Father and Son are distinct divine Persons. If the Father has a plan, he can choose to divulge it (or not) to the Son by an act of his will. The only way the Son could otherwise know would be if the Father and Son had a common shared intellect, which I believe is not supported in Church teaching (and it smells exactly like Sabellianism).

 

[EricFilmer]

When Jesus said that only the Father knew the timing of the end times, some have speculated that he was speaking while in human form and subject to human limitations (the state that kenosis descriibes), but that there is no such limitation in heaven.

But that’s not what I am pondering here. I wonder if there IS such a limitation in heaven — that Jesus does not know either on earth OR in heaven (because the Father has not revealed it to him)…

Ok, now I understand where your question is stemming from. I agree that it’s an interesting theological question to ponder. Unfortunatley, I do not think that official Church teachings have addressed this specific point. Maybe some theologians have pondered this and can provide insight (have you check Aquinas? As you know, his Summa Theologica is pretty exhaustive). As a side note, I haven’t had time to review the other thread you mentioned, so I am not aware of what has already been addressed therein.

If we try to examine this from a purely biblical standpoint then it looks like we’ll come up short in attempting to formulate an answer, even a speculative one. As we discussed, the gospel sayings of Christ are in the context of his earthly ministry, and therefore are subject to the aspects of kenosis. In order to examine the sayings of the glorified Christ (i.e., “post-kenosis”) then we have to turn to Revelation, but I haven’t had time yet to examine it in the context of your question. Off the top of my head, though, I’m not aware of anything Jesus said therein which would have a bearing on the topic at hand.

It just occured to me that perhaps the post-Resurrection sayings of Christ in the gospels could be considered “post-kenosis” (and this would be an interesting topic in and of itself), but, then again, off the top of my head I’m not aware of any of his sayings which will be helpful for the sake of this discussion.

 

[JimG]

David,

This is a very complex subject; in all a mystery, that we can only understand in part and only as God reveals to us.

That being said, I will throw my limited understanding in here.

It seems to me that the Son the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same will. In addition, it is that common Divine Will that wills that the Son not reach into the total knowledge of God, but that this movement is allowed only to the Father.

Thus it can be said that Jesus does not know, not because He cannot know, but because as God He chooses not to know. In that way He is subject to the Father.

Paul says that the Holy Spirit searches out the secret things of man. If so, why is this necessary since as God He should have immediate knowledge of every man? There seems to be a limitation to the person of the Holy Spirit as well.

Just my $0.02.

peace
steve

It’s my understanding that there is but one divine will and one divine intellect. God is One–one nature, one being, one entity. The Persons of the Trinity are not distinc beings, but distinct persons. Father, Son, and Spirit do not each have a divine nature. Rather each Person possesses the ONE divine nature, having the .One divine will and divine knowledge.

The Person of the Son assumed a fully human nature, so he has a human mind and will in addition to the one Divine mind and will.

When acting in his human nature, using his human mind and will, he is limited by his human nature, which cannot contain infinite knowledge.

When acting as God, using his divine mind and will, he knows and acts as God.

 

[Ion]

Just wondering, if The Son in heaven doesn’t want to know the time chosen by The Father, because this is the will of The Father, then what is the problem?

 

[JimG]

Just wondering, if The Son in heaven doesn’t want to know the time chosen by The Father, because this is the will of The Father, then what is the problem?

The Son is the Second Person of the Trinity–a divine person, not a human person. Yet Jesus is a human being, by reason of his human nature.

So, even in Heaven, the Son remains God and knows everything as God by reason of his divine nature. The Son also retains his human nature even in heaven. In his human nature, Jesus might not know the time chosen by the Father, but in his divine nature, he would certainly know.