L
Linux
Guest
God exists (God is logically necessary), but can you think of a logical argument proving that “heaven” is what we exist for?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
God exists (God is logically necessary) but can you think of a logical argument proving that heaven is what we exist for?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
B
Bartolome_Casas
Guest
Logic for Linux:
The Universe can’t have created itself.
Yet the Universe exists, so there must have been a Creator.
We humans can’t have created ourselves.
Yet, we humans exist, so we must have had a Creator.
We humans have a natural lifespan on earth, and then, by all appearances, die.
Yet, we humans long to keep on living. In fact, our prime reason for living is to keep on living.
So, it would have been illogical for our Creator to create us with this longing for eternal life if eternal life were not possible
Heaven is eternal life, in communion with God.
Thus, Heaven is logically necessary.
God bless us all!
P.S. I wrote that “off the cuff,” without lots of reflection. I did no research. Still, I offer it for whatever value it may inherently have, and regret the inherent flaws it may have.
The Universe can’t have created itself.
Yet the Universe exists, so there must have been a Creator.
We humans can’t have created ourselves.
Yet, we humans exist, so we must have had a Creator.
We humans have a natural lifespan on earth, and then, by all appearances, die.
Yet, we humans long to keep on living. In fact, our prime reason for living is to keep on living.
So, it would have been illogical for our Creator to create us with this longing for eternal life if eternal life were not possible
Heaven is eternal life, in communion with God.
Thus, Heaven is logically necessary.
God bless us all!
P.S. I wrote that “off the cuff,” without lots of reflection. I did no research. Still, I offer it for whatever value it may inherently have, and regret the inherent flaws it may have.
W
wmw
Guest
The place of God’s abode is called heaven and we are made to be with him eternally, but is heaven itself more than one place? Couldn’t God live in any place he chose and we could move with him and remain in the beatific vision. The Bible mentions more than just a new earth, but a new heaven as well.
Isaiah 65:17 “Behold I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be in remembrance”
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens, and the new earth, which I will make to stand before me, says the Lord: so shall your seed stand, and your name.
Apocalypse 21:1 “I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone.”
So, is heaven eternal? Yes, it is where God chooses to be or to relate to to us and angles as spirits and he always will have such a place, but any one heaven may itself not remain eternally. One place of heaven may no longer be and a new one become a new heaven or all may just remain, but be transformed.
Some may think that the new heaven in these passages is just the physical universe beyond the earth, but this is not a complete explanation of how God will come to dwell among men. Consider these paragraphs from the CCC:
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.”632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.633 (671, 280, 518)
1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”635
1048 “We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men.”641 (673)
1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).
Therefore, I’m not concerned about heaven as a place unto itself, but just about All who will be there, unless they are in hell.
Isaiah 65:17 “Behold I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be in remembrance”
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens, and the new earth, which I will make to stand before me, says the Lord: so shall your seed stand, and your name.
Apocalypse 21:1 “I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone.”
So, is heaven eternal? Yes, it is where God chooses to be or to relate to to us and angles as spirits and he always will have such a place, but any one heaven may itself not remain eternally. One place of heaven may no longer be and a new one become a new heaven or all may just remain, but be transformed.
Some may think that the new heaven in these passages is just the physical universe beyond the earth, but this is not a complete explanation of how God will come to dwell among men. Consider these paragraphs from the CCC:
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.”632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.633 (671, 280, 518)
1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”635
1048 “We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men.”641 (673)
1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).
Therefore, I’m not concerned about heaven as a place unto itself, but just about All who will be there, unless they are in hell.
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
Here’s one. It works, if one accepts the first two premisses (which perhaps not everyone will)God exists (God is logically necessary), but can you think of a logical argument proving that “heaven” is what we exist for?
- Everything has a natural place, suited to its existence and nature.
- This world is hostile to human life, and humans are not really at home or happy here.
- Therefore, there must be another place which is the true home of humans.
- Therefore Heaven exists.
A
Anthony_V
Guest
Election to heaven is a grace, not necessary to man’s nature.God exists (God is logically necessary), but can you think of a logical argument proving that “heaven” is what we exist for?
See this definition.
In theological terms, however, we can explain this here.
A
Anthony_V
Guest
My friend, we are not due heaven. We are elected to heaven, saved, by grace alone–that is, heaven is a free gift (even to Adam and Eve before they sinned). We have a natural desire to see God (being created in the imago dei), but hypothetically we could live out a purely natural end (without taking into account the fact of a universal redemption).Logic for Linux:
The Universe can’t have created itself.
Yet the Universe exists, so there must have been a Creator.
We humans can’t have created ourselves.
Yet, we humans exist, so we must have had a Creator.
We humans have a natural lifespan on earth, and then, by all appearances, die.
Yet, we humans long to keep on living. In fact, our prime reason for living is to keep on living.
So, it would have been illogical for our Creator to create us with this longing for eternal life if eternal life were not possible
Heaven is eternal life, in communion with God.
Thus, Heaven is logically necessary.
God bless us all!
P.S. I wrote that “off the cuff,” without lots of reflection. I did no research. Still, I offer it for whatever value it may inherently have, and regret the inherent flaws it may have.
S
Sair
Guest
Why is God logically necessary? Or are you conflating God with a “first cause” that might well be impersonal?God exists (God is logically necessary), but can you think of a logical argument proving that “heaven” is what we exist for?
A
Anthony_V
Guest
Certainly you’re familiar with ontological metaphysics, as most would expect a pantheist to. He’s trying to connect the Parmenidean One to an personal deity. Obviously, it doesn’t work without Revelation.Why is God logically necessary? Or are you conflating God with a “first cause” that might well be impersonal?
S
Sair
Guest
Ontology in and of itself says nothing about why any god is logically necessary.Certainly you’re familiar with ontological metaphysics, as most would expect a pantheist to. He’s trying to connect the Parmenidean One to an personal deity. Obviously, it doesn’t work without Revelation.
And it seems there is a whole lot of religious assumption that just “doesn’t work” without the claim of revelation. What gives revelation its force in the first place if it is assuming what needs to be proved - that a god exists and reveals things to its creations?
L
Linux
Guest
Its evident to me that God as an inteligent act is a logically necessary being. But i am not interested in debating that. The point of the thread is whether or not it can be known rationaly that we are created for heaven. Thats why i asserted God’s existence as a given fact.Why is God logically necessary? Or are you conflating God with a “first cause” that might well be impersonal?
Lets just assume that the first cuase is a personal being. Is there any rational reason for us to think that we were created to live forever in heaven?
L
Linux
Guest
CS Lewis, is that you?Here’s one. It works, if one accepts the first two premisses (which perhaps not everyone will)
- Everything has a natural place, suited to its existence and nature.
- This world is hostile to human life, and humans are not really at home or happy here.
- Therefore, there must be another place which is the true home of humans.
- Therefore Heaven exists.
L
Linux
Guest
However, if you believe in the God of revelation, you would have to agree that heaven is logically neccesary for the fulfilment of mans nature. Man cannot fullfil their own existence.Election to heaven is a grace, not necessary to man’s nature.
See this definition.
In theological terms, however, we can explain this here.
What do you think of Qoeleth’s Argument?
M
manhhai990
Guest
bao cao su 3 cây ngh? nhân noi thi?t vi?c bóc. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p dang mu?n nh?ng em nh? can b?nh H?ng Y?n thông t?.. 9.000 bao cao su (Dân trÃ) - V?i mong vÃ* mang d?n m?t mùa an lÃnh cho tr? em b? nhi?m nhóm b?n tr? ? TP.HCM dã lÃm 3 Noel t? 9.000 bao cao su * nhu m?t chia s? v? th? gi?i không “H”. bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p mà mình nh?ng b?t h?nh can b?nh thì cÃng Ba cây bi?t nÃy hi?n dã hoÃn du?c trung bÃy t?i 3 c?a TPHCM 278C Nam Q.3 vÃ* 88 Dinh Tiên HoÃng cây thông nÃy bÃy cho m?i lãm t? 1/12
Bà Trung Kh?i nghia du?c lÃm b?ng là 1.500 bao cao su 5m. Riêng cây thông HoÃ*ng du?c “kh?ng” * *Shop bao cao su *** v?i. 6.000 cao hon 3m. trà d? mÃu s?c gây s? chú ý
thông d?c bi?t nÃy hi?n dã hoÃn du?c trung d?a di?m c?a TPHCM g?m: 74E K? Kh?i Nghia Q.1. Các cây thông nÃy ngu?i thu?ng lãm ngÃy 24/12.
Cây thông cao 1,5m lÃ*m b?ng Shop bao cao su
bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p mÃ* mình nh?ng em nh? can b?nh chúng em
**bao cao su ngh? nhân k? cây phòng nâng cao v? HIV/AIDS dã , *****Shop bao cao su ch?n lÃm t? bao cao su nam nay.
" bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p ý nghia nh?ng khi mang can b?nh thì cÃng
h?nh phúc
tôi mu?n lÃ* m?i ngu?i ph?i có ki?n tránh lây Riêng nh?ng ngu?i Shop bao cao su tinh th?n l?c quan vÃ* hòa nh?p.
ngoÃi các ngh? nhân nhân viên. l?a ch?n v?ng khách khuya d? bóc bao cao su, pha mÃu, k?t d?c dáo. Trong vòng hon, v?i hon tr? tham gia cung dã hoÃ*n.
" bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p dang mu?n nh?ng b?t h?nh can b?nh HIV/AIDS
cho tr? Shop bao cao su du?c s? .
M?t s? hình ?nh quá trình lÃm 3 cây thông b?ng bao cao su: *
Shop bao cao su :
http://shopthienduong.com/47/channel-BAO-CAO-SU.htm
{Shop Bao cao su} Sa
Bà Trung Kh?i nghia du?c lÃm b?ng là 1.500 bao cao su 5m. Riêng cây thông HoÃ*ng du?c “kh?ng” * *Shop bao cao su *** v?i. 6.000 cao hon 3m. trà d? mÃu s?c gây s? chú ý
thông d?c bi?t nÃy hi?n dã hoÃn du?c trung d?a di?m c?a TPHCM g?m: 74E K? Kh?i Nghia Q.1. Các cây thông nÃy ngu?i thu?ng lãm ngÃy 24/12.
Cây thông cao 1,5m lÃ*m b?ng Shop bao cao su
bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p mÃ* mình nh?ng em nh? can b?nh chúng em
**bao cao su ngh? nhân k? cây phòng nâng cao v? HIV/AIDS dã , *****Shop bao cao su ch?n lÃm t? bao cao su nam nay.
" bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p ý nghia nh?ng khi mang can b?nh thì cÃng
h?nh phúc
tôi mu?n lÃ* m?i ngu?i ph?i có ki?n tránh lây Riêng nh?ng ngu?i Shop bao cao su tinh th?n l?c quan vÃ* hòa nh?p.
ngoÃi các ngh? nhân nhân viên. l?a ch?n v?ng khách khuya d? bóc bao cao su, pha mÃu, k?t d?c dáo. Trong vòng hon, v?i hon tr? tham gia cung dã hoÃ*n.
" bao cao su. t?i em r?t e ng?i nhung nghi d?n thông di?p dang mu?n nh?ng b?t h?nh can b?nh HIV/AIDS
cho tr? Shop bao cao su du?c s? .
M?t s? hình ?nh quá trình lÃm 3 cây thông b?ng bao cao su: *
Shop bao cao su :
http://shopthienduong.com/47/channel-BAO-CAO-SU.htm
{Shop Bao cao su} Sa
i Gon quâ?n 2 {Shop Bao cao su} Ha` Nô?i quâ?n Thu? Du?c*
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Right
Good and evil is the answer. thus the on-going battle of mankind for their souls. Heaven is the representation of Good as Gods reward.
We know evil exists we can see it, feel it, become engulfed by it, so to we can chose the polar opposite with good, through will and reason, a consenting yes and plan of action which in effect becomes the window of Grace, this we also know. To choose to breath, to say yes to the Lord daily is a yes to mortification given in Grace and Love by God. We live in a state of mortification. The reward for your suffering is to not suffer, the excuse for sin is pleasure which in effect is distraction from mortification in the incorrect way. For only the Grace of God can be your lasting strength and guide to Salvation. There is only a fleeting false security in any other path. All come to know humility in this world. The only question is “when”.
Hell is depravation and separation of God, so too then communion with God has a reality and the far end is called Heaven. Separation creates a “lack” of Grace no different than mans inclination to sin in the now of our being. No lack of Grace then exceeds into the “yes” of communion by Free Will. Grace is the living aspect, the living water of divinization which makes us brothers and sisters of Christ. Man lives by this Grace by the moment with a rational choice by reason knowledge and will, or he chose’s the polar opposite in rationalization of evil, thus an excuse.
Where is irrelevant, how to reach the “where” is the key. We live in a physical world of polar opposites. Good/Bad, Day/Night, Hot/Cold, Up/Down, Right/Wrong, Left/Right etc.
The lasting image and representation of the Cross is to remember what life is and what its worth is. While we can say life is a gift, its not a gift because you just happen to be here entertaining a pleasure seeking life. Its a gift because Christ offered you “eternity” by divinization. The short as physics affirms is that for every action there is a reaction. Same is true in this realm of topic.
Good and evil is the answer. thus the on-going battle of mankind for their souls. Heaven is the representation of Good as Gods reward.
We know evil exists we can see it, feel it, become engulfed by it, so to we can chose the polar opposite with good, through will and reason, a consenting yes and plan of action which in effect becomes the window of Grace, this we also know. To choose to breath, to say yes to the Lord daily is a yes to mortification given in Grace and Love by God. We live in a state of mortification. The reward for your suffering is to not suffer, the excuse for sin is pleasure which in effect is distraction from mortification in the incorrect way. For only the Grace of God can be your lasting strength and guide to Salvation. There is only a fleeting false security in any other path. All come to know humility in this world. The only question is “when”.
Hell is depravation and separation of God, so too then communion with God has a reality and the far end is called Heaven. Separation creates a “lack” of Grace no different than mans inclination to sin in the now of our being. No lack of Grace then exceeds into the “yes” of communion by Free Will. Grace is the living aspect, the living water of divinization which makes us brothers and sisters of Christ. Man lives by this Grace by the moment with a rational choice by reason knowledge and will, or he chose’s the polar opposite in rationalization of evil, thus an excuse.
Where is irrelevant, how to reach the “where” is the key. We live in a physical world of polar opposites. Good/Bad, Day/Night, Hot/Cold, Up/Down, Right/Wrong, Left/Right etc.
The lasting image and representation of the Cross is to remember what life is and what its worth is. While we can say life is a gift, its not a gift because you just happen to be here entertaining a pleasure seeking life. Its a gift because Christ offered you “eternity” by divinization. The short as physics affirms is that for every action there is a reaction. Same is true in this realm of topic.
A
Anthony_V
Guest
Whether or not God reveals anything to anyone doesn’t necessarily have to do with the fulfillment of man’s nature. The revelation could be “the Zorg species is called to a supernatural life in God”. The call to heaven is above man’s nature. It’s supernatural. Supernatural = above (super) the nature (natural). That’s why we need a supernatural means–the grace of God–to get there.However, if you believe in the God of revelation, you would have to agree that heaven is logically neccesary for the fulfilment of mans nature.
If you mean to say the God of Christian Revelation, then I understand what you mean. In that case, the nature is elevated, and heaven is necessary for the fulfillment of man’s elected nature, insofar as it is deigned by the grace of God.
Unless man is called to a natural end. Then, man’s nature can fulfill it. The same goes for any other living organism. A cow can fulfill its existence. It needs no heaven, no matter how happy or unhappy it should be. The call to heaven is a supernatural one that calls us out of our natural limitations by the grace of God. It’s not a natural phenomenon.Man cannot fullfill their own existence.
I personally thought it was rather weak (no offense to him/her). I agree with only the first of their premises. Happiness or lack thereof does not entitle man to something. I want a Ferrari right now, but that does not entitle me to it. No justice has to be done, because I am not owe anything. Neglecting man of shelter, food, water, security, etc. is a different thing. That sort of idea–that man lived a cruel life and then bit the dust at the whim of God–is exemplified very clearly in the Psalms. That’s why the Gospel is the GOOD news. We’re elected to theosis! Alleluia!What do you think of Qoeleth’s Argument?
On a side-note essentially unrelated to the question, the difference between the ordinary Jewish thought and one of a purely natural state is that we know now that we are a spiritual soul, which is a substantial union between a body and a spirit. The body is complex, so it breaks down, but the spirit is simple, so it is immortal and does not. If we were not called to theosis, then we would die, but we would remain as our intellectual spirit, pondering God in a natural “paradise” so to speak. That’s all good and fancy speculation.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.