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Starwynd
Guest
How can God exist outside of time? What is the direct scriptural reference to support this position?
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Padilla7921
Guest
Time is a construct of the human mind. It’s a measurement that exists in the physical realm. God isn’t part of the physical realm.
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Harri_Laaksonen
Guest
“A day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.” (2 Peter 3:9)
God exists outside of space and time. Time is a function of space. God created space out of “nothing” and thus also created time.
I have taken view that since God is pure spirit, he can be classed as pure energy. Energy moves at the speed of light and at that speed past-present-and future and all telescoped into an eternal now. Therefore God exists; as He did in the beginning, does now, and will forever.
Enjoying the chance to discuss real theology.
Harri
God exists outside of space and time. Time is a function of space. God created space out of “nothing” and thus also created time.
I have taken view that since God is pure spirit, he can be classed as pure energy. Energy moves at the speed of light and at that speed past-present-and future and all telescoped into an eternal now. Therefore God exists; as He did in the beginning, does now, and will forever.
Enjoying the chance to discuss real theology.
Harri
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water
Guest
Doesn’t light contain energy?
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Henning
Guest
God is able to span time as in the following verse:
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega
the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come,
the Almighty.
is-now, was-past, is to come-future
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega
the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come,
the Almighty.
is-now, was-past, is to come-future
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teachccd
Guest
Time is a measurement of change. God cannot change. He is immutable and therefore cannot experience time. Most of Scripture alludes to God as being unchanging. God is the Eternal Now and while our existence changes within our realm, God sees all of our changes (from creation to the end of time) as one moment. So God really does not exist out of time but rather exists within our time so that we may experience Him as we change. He did this most perfectly in the Incarnation…teachccd 
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hmmm, I like that, teachccd.
I’d say that God exists eternally, and that for part of that eternity which we humans experience as time His existence and ours ‘touch’. . .when we die (and time, to us, ceases to exist as we know it), we will continue to exist forever either ‘with’ Him or apart from Him.
God exists ‘in’ and ‘out’ of time; he (unlike us in our mortal lives) is not restricted to ‘time alone’ as some might put it.
I’d say that God exists eternally, and that for part of that eternity which we humans experience as time His existence and ours ‘touch’. . .when we die (and time, to us, ceases to exist as we know it), we will continue to exist forever either ‘with’ Him or apart from Him.
God exists ‘in’ and ‘out’ of time; he (unlike us in our mortal lives) is not restricted to ‘time alone’ as some might put it.
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Starwynd
Guest
If God cannot change then how come that he was able to become Jesus? Isn’t that a change?
If God cannot change then why are we still not bound to the rules & laws of Leviticus as well as the Old Testament?
If God cannot change why then did he promise us not to destroy the earth with a flood again? On this he even gave us a rainbow as a symbol of His word.
If God cannot change then how is Omnipotent? If He cannot change then He ahs limitations, and therefore cannot be omnipotent since being omnipotent means that absolutely nothing is impossible.
If God cannot change then why are we still not bound to the rules & laws of Leviticus as well as the Old Testament?
If God cannot change why then did he promise us not to destroy the earth with a flood again? On this he even gave us a rainbow as a symbol of His word.
If God cannot change then how is Omnipotent? If He cannot change then He ahs limitations, and therefore cannot be omnipotent since being omnipotent means that absolutely nothing is impossible.
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teachccd
Guest
No. The second person of the Trinity took on human form. His essence of God never changed. Jesus is the God-Man. He is fully God (immutable) and fully human. We apprehend this but can never comprehend this revealed truth.
God’s revelation of Himself broadens for us in order that we may better understand Him and who He is. In Christ, the Father is fully revealed. God reveals Himself to the Israelites in a foreshadowing of who is to come: Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfills the Old Covenant and is now the New Covenant. This does not represent a change in God but rather a change in our understanding of who God is.
God must reveal Himself to us in ways that we can relate to. It’s about a covenantal love whereby God uses signs and symbols to express His infinite essence.
Infinity can never become larger than it already is. God’s Omnipotence has no limits and that is precisely why He cannot change. In order for Him to change God would have to leave a state of being which He was and enter a state that He was not. Omnipotence could neve allow for this…teachccd
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
I suppose you could equally say that we exist outside of eternity.
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Psychotheosophy
Guest
I think we are on the same page…
If
Perfect Happiness is God
The Way to God (or process to Perfect Happiness) is Jesus
And
A lack of human happiness is suffering
Then
Firstly,
Perfect Happiness cannot have a history of unhappiness
Therefore
People cannot become Perfect Happiness itself
The process of moving
from a lack of human happiness to perfect human happiness
is a process that includes
a lack of human happiness and perfect human happiness
Since the highest abstraction of this process
Is the same across and time and space
It is one, without division
Therefore
The highest abstraction of this process
Is revealed
as a lack of human happiness, Perfect Happiness, and humanity
In time and space
But is perfectly united
Outside time and space
(Like white light passing through a prism creating a rainbow)
(Like the rainbow after the great flood of Noah’s time)
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
god exists outside time the same way a potter exists outside a vase.
god doesn’t know things before they happen, he sees all things at the same time.
from his view point all things happened instantaneously
we need time to sort cause from effect, he doesn’t
the arguments against First Cause dont take scriptural descriptions of the nature of G-d into account
so whats the point of arguing first cause wit them?
but with scriptural descriptions of the nature of our G-d, it becomes an extremely strong argument in favor G-d
but it doesnt matter what you say, their identity is tied up in their established belief just like us, just like anyone.
a real change of heart can only be affected by Christ, any other method is a waste of time,
god doesn’t know things before they happen, he sees all things at the same time.
from his view point all things happened instantaneously
we need time to sort cause from effect, he doesn’t
the arguments against First Cause dont take scriptural descriptions of the nature of G-d into account
so whats the point of arguing first cause wit them?
but with scriptural descriptions of the nature of our G-d, it becomes an extremely strong argument in favor G-d
but it doesnt matter what you say, their identity is tied up in their established belief just like us, just like anyone.
a real change of heart can only be affected by Christ, any other method is a waste of time,
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Not in God - it affects the creature, but God is not a creature.
If an author puts himself into his own story, he is still the author of the story - the story-character is modified, but not the author. If the author has three children, it does not follow that the s-c. has three children: the two entities, author & story-character, lead separate lives. Otherwise, every author would have multiple personality disorder.The Incarnation is sort of, a bit like, that. The Word is eternally Present with the Father, yet in “our time”, was Incarnate as the man Jesus of Nazareth.
Only by being a man could God the Word become limited & capable of suffering & change - not by any becoming or change in the Word, but by taking to Himself a fully human nature.Change is a sign of imperfection - of lacking something: but God lacks nothing, He is is wholly perfect Omnipotence is fullness of power - not indeterminacy in the exercise of power. There is nothing to change - for He is the fullness of His own Life & Blessedness & Holiness: He is altogether & Unlimitedly Blessed, Holy, Glorious - to what can He change ? He has no starting-point, & no stopping-place for change, because He is not finite, but infinite.
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St_Gregory
Guest
God is Divinely Simple as Perfect Ultimate Goodness/Love.
While He is Immutable and Timeless, His Actions (to love) are also Immutable, they are always the same essence and form and cannot be externally affected.
This is because God created Time and so He Himself stands above Time. Furthermore because He is Perfect, He cannot change because this involves moving from potentiality to actuality, and God is “actus purus” (Pure Actuality) meaning that He has NO potential at all (and thus unchanging) (Aristotelian Philosophy).
However His Love, when transcending our world will clearly act very differently, not because it is different, but because it is needed in different ways.-- while God may have issued several covenants over the history, this is not God Changing but rather us changing in response and so His acts “react/move” (note the “” meaning “interpret loosely”) accordingly - Loves first duty was the creation so that people can share in such Love and then Love’s duty was to condemn sinners, then issue the covenants, then the Incarnation etc etc; though I’ve phrased it wafflely, God Himself is unchanging but His actions may act differently.
An example helps: if you were married, the highest form of expressive your Love would be sex, but we know that just because you truely and unchangingly love your partner, doesn’t mean you’d have sex non-stop, the most loving actions will change and move regularly. (First example I thought of)
Interesting point. A bit like the Omnipotence Paradox (“Can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift?”)
My answer is that Omnipotence means “God can do anything meaningful (mathematically valid?)”
So God can create ex nihilo, He can exist intrinsically (uncreated), He can take flesh and die He can see all time/space at once etc because it’s meaningful for a God (which Catholics understand) to do those things.
However your example is different because, although God can’t change, this is not a discredit to His Omnipotence at all, because it is meaningless to think of a Perfect, Good and Timeless being to change. The omnipotence paradox also fails to discredit God’s omnipotence because it is meaningless to think of an object that an infinitely strong being would fail to be able to lift.
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Harri_Laaksonen
Guest
I like the idea of meaningful, especially an answer to the question “why” with regards to many of God’s actions and seeming inactions.
There is really nothing mathematical about meaningfulness, and ultimately any action or reaction needs to be meaningful to God and not necessarily for human observers. We can attempt to discover the meaning and that describes the discipline of Theology (the study of God). Our attempts are always circumscribed by our human limitations and insight is a gift of Grace.
Q. Why did God make the universe so big?
A. He has not told us yet, be patient.
Harri
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Psychotheosophy
Guest
Amen, brother!
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Psychotheosophy
Guest
We don’t know
exactly how God exists outside of time
but
I would like to hear any metaphor
of people’s personal encounters with God
who exists outside of time.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i dont know if this counts but subjectively that Eternal Sacrifice, present in all times and places, ringing out like some Divine Bell, that is like true north to the compass of my soul, it doesn’t feel limited to this universe, but also extends to all that maybe
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St_Gregory
Guest
I agree, the Sacrifice is an event that exists of the High Heavens (Transcendent world) and it is omnipresent.i dont know if this counts but subjectively that Eternal Sacrifice, present in all times and places, ringing out like some Divine Bell, that is like true north to the compass of my soul, it doesn’t feel limited to this universe, but also extends to all that maybe
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Harri_Laaksonen
Guest
No problem. This does not address the question of God existing out of time. Since He does, this argument is axiomatic.
A couple of days ago a post mentioned that if God is energy He is light… Scripture tells us that “God is light and in him there is no darkness” QED.
Harri
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