God Hardened Pharaohs Heart?

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Hello,

God told Moses that He would harden Pharaoh’s heart. If God hardened Pharaoh’s heart then that does not seem fair to Pharaoh to me. How could Pharaoh have a chance to repent if God hardened his heart?

Thank You
 
Hi Greg_McPherran,

I think you asked a great question.

In a nutshell, in the Bible we see God predestining all things, but we also see the free will action that God gave each human. For example in Exodus 8:15 we see that it is pharaoh that hardens his own heart: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” So in effect God is soverign over everything, but He does allow us to have a true free will. Both are in play.

Now let me tell ya, there is no way to get on top of this with the human mind. In Catholicism the Thomists and Molinists have been arguing about this for centuries. In protestantism the Calvinists and the Arminains have also been arguing about this for centuries.

For me it is helpful to remember the two things the Church teaches: God is absolutely soverign. God gave man a free will. Both are true even though they seem contradictory. But as Paul says “who has known the mind of the Lord, and who has been His counselor?”

Hope that something in this might be helpful to you.

God bless you
 
Hello,

Thank you for the kind response:

Exodus 7:3: Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many signs and wonders that I will work in the land of Egypt, he will not listen to you.

This is not free will as stated. I don’t understand this.

Thank You
 
I have heard that “harnding of the heart” occurs when God withdraws his grace from a person. It is not a positive act, so to speak, of giving someone a terrible attitude. Rather it is a withdrawal of the grace which enables us to share in God’s love and mercy. Without God’s grace we become hateful, wrathful and selfish.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hello,

Thank you for the kind response:

Exodus 7:3: Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many signs and wonders that I will work in the land of Egypt, he will not listen to you.

This is not free will as stated. I don’t understand this.

Thank You
Hi again,

Exodus 7:3 is not free will, but Exodus 8:15 is free will: “But when *Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart * and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” You can not take Exodus 7:3 in a vacuum. It has to mesh with everything else, including Exodus 8:15. This is what I meant by the operation of *both * free will and predestination. 🙂
 
I appreciate all the responses but Exodus still indicates that God caused Pharaoh to behave a certain way, and I don’t see how that is free will. The other passage just shows that indeed Pharaoh behaved as God made him behave. This is not free will. Plus, you cannot say that God forced someone and at the same time they used free will - that’s a contradiction.

If God withdrew His grace then I don’t see how Pharaoh can have true free will to do good if God took His grace away from him.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
I appreciate all the responses but Exodus still indicates that God caused Pharaoh to behave a certain way, and I don’t see how that is free will. The other passage just shows that indeed Pharaoh behaved as God made him behave. This is not free will. Plus, you cannot say that God forced someone and at the same time they used free will - that’s a contradiction.

If God withdrew His grace then I don’t see how Pharaoh can have true free will to do good if God took His grace away from him.
God gives grace, yet one must cooperate with God’s grace.

The Jews saw God as the Primary Creator and therefore the Cause of everything, so they could express it as “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” However, every other kind of action or causality was seem as a secondary cause. So if I throw a ball, God also throws it (force, kinetic energy, inertia, gravity and stuff like that, not to mention creating me and the ball.) However, I am the secondary cause of the ball’s flight.
 
Good question, perhaps we don’t get all our answers on our time table, but rather on God’s.

I think you may even be capable of coming to an answer on this yourself, if you put your mind to it with the initial, underlying assumption that there is an answer that will satisfy, one that is consistant with all that we know of a Loving God, who gives us the free will to make choices in our lives while accepting that he is all powerful, and knows all that has been, is and will be.

With the Abraham question, it was things I’ve already pondered, but this one, is new for me, not something I’ve put as much time into. But, with the responses given thus far it makes me think of the analogy of God’s foreknowledge of that which will be and watching a movie for the second time.

We know what each character is going to do, we can even scream it out at the screen and yet we are not preventing them from playing their role with the same facial expressions, the same ticks they bring to it, of their own accord. We simply know, in advance, what we will be seeing in the next scene.

Ok, so this still doesn’t answer the second reference, “I will make him obstinate…”

Dunno, but I do know that God is all powerful and can do anything he wants, to anyone at any time. I used to have an incredibly difficult time understanding the concept of “Fear the Lord our God” for how was I supposed to be afraid of a God who is the perfect and complete definition of Love, as I understand God to be. But then I came to realize that true love is sometimes willing to cause us pain if that is what is necessary for us to grow, to face the truth about our own lives and to become a better person.

This is seen in the love of a parent. A truly good parent is willing to risk a childs wrath by scolding and correcting when necessary. A real parent sometimes even has to punish, occationally to the point that the child may even risk rebellion rather than accept the punishment. But in this case, a parent who truly loves their child will stick to his guns and not allow the opportunity to teach to be lost, for fear of truly losing the child to sin and error of his ways.

A spouse may at times need to correct, gently and always with Love at the forefront, their beloved, if they it becomes necessary. Our culture has placed such an emphasis on “happiness” that this more frequently than it should results in divorce rather than the receiving spouse accepting the need for change, but if presented with adequate humility, even in this case change can occur.

Friends also find themselves occationally needing to decide whether or not to say something difficult. A true friend is willing to risk the sacrifice and say something, when asked or when the opportunity is so ripe it feels as though to not say something is a lie. But again, any correction must be done in humility and with Love at the absolute forefront, for anything else is but the Gong making noise.

CARose
 
Hi Joanna,
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Joanna:
The Jews saw God as the Primary Creator and therefore the Cause of everything, so they could express it as “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” However, every other kind of action or causality was seem as a secondary cause. So if I throw a ball, God also throws it (force, kinetic energy, inertia, gravity and stuff like that, not to mention creating me and the ball.) However, I am the secondary cause of the ball’s flight.
Now, that would make sense to me, that it is a manner of speaking, but perhaps as others have pointed out there is still some deep theological insight to be had. I just don’t know what it is yet unless there is none and indeed it is nothing more than a manner of speaking.

Thank You!

More thoughts on this welcomed!
 
How about the thought, that God knowing our intention, can when we are wrong or on the wrong path, soften our heart ( give us grace), and redirect us with His grace and with our desire to do the will of God (co-operation) as He did Saul (Paul): “But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace has not been ineffective.” (1Cor15: 10). Saul, afterall, as a zealous Pharisee was trying to do God’s work in persecuting the cult of Jesus.

However, Pharaoh was another case, he was obdurate, intent on his own will and intent on accomplishing it, one way or the other. God didn’t force him by an overwhelming action/grace. He didn’t soften pharaoh’s heart. He left Pharaoh to his chosen end.
So, it is then a case of giving grace to one who would cooperate with God’s grace and will (Saul/Paul) if he was made aware of his error. It also is a case of God not violating Pharaoh’s free will by maneuvering it by an overwhelming grace. He rather left him to his decision not to obey Moses’ God.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hi Joanna,

Now, that would make sense to me, that it is a manner of speaking, but perhaps as others have pointed out there is still some deep theological insight to be had. I just don’t know what it is yet unless there is none and indeed it is nothing more than a manner of speaking.

Thank You!

More thoughts on this welcomed!
I think it is more a manner of thought or a manner of understanding than a manner of speaking (in the sense of a “figure of speech.”)
 
Hello Joanna,

Joanna said:
“But by the grace of God I am what I am and His grace has not been ineffective.” (1Cor15: 10). Saul, afterall, as a zealous Pharisee was trying to do God’s work in persecuting the cult of Jesus.

That is helpful for reflection!
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Joanna:
He rather left him to his decision not to obey Moses’ God.
God said He would make Pharaoh obstinate.

Thank You!
Greg
 
Origen posited an answer to this problem in the following way: Origen said that God’s grace falls on everyone’s heart just as the sunlight falls on different objects. Should the sun shine on wax, the wax will soften and melt. If the sun falls on wet clay it will harden and crack.

Obviously, the disposition of the heart is a key issue in the example of Pharoah. God might have chosen to do something special for Pharoah as he did for Paul on the road to Damascus, or He could have left him to his own devices. The miracles witnessed by Pharoah were of God, but these tended to harden Pharoah rather than soften him. This is consistent with scripture and the analogy provided by Origen.
 
God said He would make Pharaoh obstinate. Is this just a language misunderstanding?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
God said He would make Pharaoh obstinate. Is this just a language misunderstanding?
It’s obvious that Pharoah became more obstinate. Scripture just doesn’t tell us exactly how God was going to accomplish this. I think the approach of Moses and Aaron and the signs worked through them by God were what hardened Pharoah. They were God’s instruments that hardened Pharoah and were at the same time the instruments that freed the chosen people.
 
Exodus 7:3: Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many signs and wonders that I will work in the land of Egypt, he will not listen to you.

Note that God say “make” and “despite” (rather than because of).

Once again, I am being persisitent - and you certainly are being patient with me as always. 🙂
 
Greg,

There are fourteen references from Exodus 7:3 through Exodus 14:8 that mention the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. Seven of the passages say that God hardened Pharaoahs heart; three indicate that Pharaoh hardened his own heart; three are neutral as to how his heart was hardened; and one, Exodus 7:21-23 says, “But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts; so Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened,”

The tally for each described cause is not important, but the fact that these scriptures refer to both the primary cause and to secondary causes is significant. God is the primary cause of everything. The ancient writers frequently made reference to the primary cause, God, rather than secondary causes because idolatry was rampant and it was important to reinforce the providential relationship of Yahweh and the chosen people. Since the narrative includes both the primary cause, God, and the secondary causes including Pharaoh himself, it would seem that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened in the fashion described in the earlier posts. I think Origen’s explanatory analogy is helpful.

My own inclination is to believe that, in Pharaoh’s case, it would have required a positive infusion of God’s grace into Pharaoh’s heart to sway him from his own ego and ambition. Consider that Pharaoh and his people considered Pharaoh to be divine. He would relinquish nothing easily.
 
:hmmm: I think you’ll agree there is still some mystery unless indeed it is a manner of understanding Jewish thought at the time and the wording that was used.

However, if Pharaoh needed God’s grace to do good then how does Pharaoh have free will if God denied Pharaoh His grace? Pharaoh cannot be held responsible if God denied him grace, true?
 
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