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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Jesus is God and has a glorified body. So how do we say that God has no body?
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Fergal
Guest
"God is Spirit"… Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ stated quite clearly that God the Father is a Spirit:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
Does this leave the option that God as a spirit could also have a “body of flesh and bones?” Here is how Jesus defined a spirit:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)
Therefore Jesus left us no option to believe that God, in His Glory, exists merely as a body consisting of flesh and bones. Elsewhere in the Bible are statements indicating that God is invisible, although humans are obviously visible:
…Christ… Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen… (Romans 1:19-20)
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17)
…who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15-16)
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. (Hebrews 11:27)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)
But Jesus, as God, had a body
It is true that Jesus, who is God the Son, came to earth in a human body. However, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus took on the form of a human, but did not exist as such from eternity:
…Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8)
The book of John confirms that Jesus existed in a glorified state before becoming flesh.4 Therefore, the Bible claims that Jesus existed in the “form of God” (i.e., a Spirit), but took on the form of a human male in order to come to earth and commune with His people.
Hope that helps!
Fergal
Naas
Ireland
Jesus Christ stated quite clearly that God the Father is a Spirit:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
Does this leave the option that God as a spirit could also have a “body of flesh and bones?” Here is how Jesus defined a spirit:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)
Therefore Jesus left us no option to believe that God, in His Glory, exists merely as a body consisting of flesh and bones. Elsewhere in the Bible are statements indicating that God is invisible, although humans are obviously visible:
…Christ… Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen… (Romans 1:19-20)
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17)
…who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15-16)
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. (Hebrews 11:27)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)
But Jesus, as God, had a body
It is true that Jesus, who is God the Son, came to earth in a human body. However, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus took on the form of a human, but did not exist as such from eternity:
…Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8)
The book of John confirms that Jesus existed in a glorified state before becoming flesh.4 Therefore, the Bible claims that Jesus existed in the “form of God” (i.e., a Spirit), but took on the form of a human male in order to come to earth and commune with His people.
Hope that helps!
Fergal
Naas
Ireland
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Yes, I understand. However, Jesus NOW has a body and Jesus is God, so how can we say that God has no body even now?
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Fergal
Guest
I found this answer which I think may help:
***There is a big difference between being a spirit and having a spirit. Jesus says that the Father is a spirit, not that the Father has a spirit; this means that he lacks a body entirely.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and loudly declared the fact that God is an unchangeable, immaterial spirit who has an entirely simple (“incomposite”) nature—that is, a nature containing no parts. Since all bodies extend through space and thus can be divided into parts, it is clear that God cannot have a body.
“What of Christ’s body?” you may ask. It is true that Jesus, who is God, assumed an earthly body when he was born of the Blessed Virgin, and that this body, now glorified, continues to exist. But since the Lord only took on human flesh in these “last days,” and since God has always existed, without beginning or end, we must still conclude that having a body is not part of God’s unchangeable nature: he exists in eternity as pure spirit, even though he chose for the Son to also take on a human nature in addition to his bodiless, timeless, divine nature.***
For a greater explination see catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp
God Bless,
Fergal
***There is a big difference between being a spirit and having a spirit. Jesus says that the Father is a spirit, not that the Father has a spirit; this means that he lacks a body entirely.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and loudly declared the fact that God is an unchangeable, immaterial spirit who has an entirely simple (“incomposite”) nature—that is, a nature containing no parts. Since all bodies extend through space and thus can be divided into parts, it is clear that God cannot have a body.
“What of Christ’s body?” you may ask. It is true that Jesus, who is God, assumed an earthly body when he was born of the Blessed Virgin, and that this body, now glorified, continues to exist. But since the Lord only took on human flesh in these “last days,” and since God has always existed, without beginning or end, we must still conclude that having a body is not part of God’s unchangeable nature: he exists in eternity as pure spirit, even though he chose for the Son to also take on a human nature in addition to his bodiless, timeless, divine nature.***
For a greater explination see catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp
God Bless,
Fergal
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Thank you. Yes, I already read that but it still doesn’t address the question.:tiphat:
Even though having a body is not part of God’s unchangeable nature, Jesus now has a glorified body. Jesus is God. So therefore does God now have a body?
Even though having a body is not part of God’s unchangeable nature, Jesus now has a glorified body. Jesus is God. So therefore does God now have a body?
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drforjc
Guest
Yes, He does.
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Mjohn1453
Guest
There are things that you can say about one of the persons in the Trinity that do not apply to the other two persons in the Trinity. You can say God the Son died on the Cross, but you cannot say God the Spirit died on the Cross or God the Father died on the Cross. These are actually heresies. You can say that God died on the Cross.
Using this illustration you cannot say that God the Father has a glorified body. Though, and I could be wrong, that doesn’t rule out someone saying that God has a body in the person of the Son.
Ultimately it is a mystery.
Using this illustration you cannot say that God the Father has a glorified body. Though, and I could be wrong, that doesn’t rule out someone saying that God has a body in the person of the Son.
Ultimately it is a mystery.
J
JimG
Guest
Jesus is both God and man. He is One Person with two natures.
As God, He is Pure Spirit, the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, totally possessing the One Divine Nature.
God in His own nature cannot have a body.
As Man, Jesus is human, and so has a human body and soul.
The 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Son, took upon Himself a human nature with a human body. But as God–in his Divine nature–he has no body.
JimG
As God, He is Pure Spirit, the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, totally possessing the One Divine Nature.
God in His own nature cannot have a body.
As Man, Jesus is human, and so has a human body and soul.
The 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Son, took upon Himself a human nature with a human body. But as God–in his Divine nature–he has no body.
JimG
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Yes but Jesus is one in being with the Father so how can Jesus have a body but the Father does not? This does not sound like “one in being” to me.
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JimG
Guest
God is three Persons. “One in Being with the Father” means having the same nature as the Father. God has but one nature, which is pure spirit.
Nature describes what you are. Person describes who you are. In God there are 3 Who’s but only one What.
Jesus is One person (the Son) with two natures–human and divine. As a human, he must have a body. As God, he does not.
The Father has no body.
The Son has a body in his human nature but not in his divine nature.
The Holy Spirit has no body.
They are one God.
JimG
Nature describes what you are. Person describes who you are. In God there are 3 Who’s but only one What.
Jesus is One person (the Son) with two natures–human and divine. As a human, he must have a body. As God, he does not.
The Father has no body.
The Son has a body in his human nature but not in his divine nature.
The Holy Spirit has no body.
They are one God.
JimG
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drforjc
Guest
Jim, does a person have a body or a nature have a body?
I think in the same sense that we can say God died on the cross, we can say God has a body. I think the statements are parallel.
I think in the same sense that we can say God died on the cross, we can say God has a body. I think the statements are parallel.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
So God is a nature, not a person?
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drforjc
Guest
Greg, go to www.newadvent.org and look up the articles
Person
Nature
Trinity,the Blessed
Hypostatic Union
for starters. This should help you clear up your confusion.
Person
Nature
Trinity,the Blessed
Hypostatic Union
for starters. This should help you clear up your confusion.
J
JimG
Guest
God is One Nature, possessed by three Persons. Or you could say that God is Three Persons possessing the One Divine Nature.
Hmm, I would say that a person has a body if that is part of his nature. I am a human person, and as such I have a body, because that is part of my human nature.
BUT, I can’t similarly say that Jesus is a human person who also has a body. That would be incorrect because, while Jesus does have a body, Jesus is not a human person. He is not two persons–human and divine–but only one person, the Second Person of the Trinity. By incarnation that one Person took upon himself a human nature. By having a human nature, Jesus, although a divine person, does have a human body.
JimG
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Yes but He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. So if Jesus has a body, how is it that the Father does not have a body? How can the Father be in Jesus and not have a body? How can Jesus be in the Father and the Father not have a body?
I’m just trying to understand. I think there’s an explanation but I just don’t know what it is?
I’m just trying to understand. I think there’s an explanation but I just don’t know what it is?
J
JimG
Guest
I think maybe only God can explain Himself; we’ll never understand the Trinity completely. But I think that Jesus can say “I am in the Father and the Father is in me,” and also “I and the Father are One,” because both He and the Father (two distinct persons) both possess the same one Divine nature, which is pure spirit.
Father and Son are united because each possesses the one Divine Nature. But they are distinct Persons, and it is only the Son who took on a human nature, not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Jesus, because He is human, can make atonement for humans.
And because He is God, his actions have infinite value, able to be salvific in scope.
JimG
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drforjc
Guest
No, Jesus is not a human person. I don’t think I said that. But take the statement “God died on the cross.” We don’t say “His humanity died on the cross,” we say “God (= person not nature in this case) died on the cross.” The subject of the verb “died” must be the divine person of Jesus. Similarly, then, in this case, we would say the divine person, Jesus, possesses a body, not that His humanity possesses a body.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Thanks for the great discussion and I understand it’s a mystery. Still. by probing the mystery I believe we can gain insight. Perhaps my desire to understand is God drawing me to Himself.
I think the concept of nature also bothers me. It doesn’t make sense to me that Jesus and the Father share only the same nature because a nature is not a living being and I see the one God as one living being.
I think the concept of nature also bothers me. It doesn’t make sense to me that Jesus and the Father share only the same nature because a nature is not a living being and I see the one God as one living being.
J
JimG
Guest
I completely agree. Jesus died on the cross, and Jesus is God, a Divine Person.
We might also consider the meaning of death.
Death is the violent separation of body and soul. The body goes to the tomb, but the soul lives on. Death could only happen to Jesus because he had a human body and soul.
JimG
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davidv
Guest
I don’t understand why you say “Jesus is not a human person”. This seems to be counter to that the material that you pointed us to in the newadvent link. If I believe the gospels (John 1:14), I have to believe that Jesus was human. If he wasn’t, he could not have died. His spiritual nature could not die, only his human nature could. Could you explain?
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