God is not the Creator

[Quatsch]

I ran across this article today: God is not the Creator, claims academic

Here is an excerpt:

http://www.dailyglobal.com/2009/10/god-is-not-the-creator-claims-academic/:

Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis “in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth” is not a true translation of the Hebrew.

She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world — and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.

…

She said: “It meant to say that God did create humans and animals, but not the Earth itself.”

…

What are the flaws in her argument and how can I explain them to someone who is not Catholic (or Christian for that matter) but believes that God exists? For those without the Church to guide them, things like this can present quite a stumbling block.

I will also say that when I googled the scholars name who is claiming this (Ellen Van Wolde), I found this page: ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2009/10/a-response-to-ellen-van-wolde-on-genesis-1.html

It contains an interesting response, but I was curious as to what the folks on the CA Forums would come up with.

Blessings,

Q

 

[VociMike]

I would just ask what the Jews believed. After all, it was their language, their scripture, their belief. And I’ve never heard it claimed that ancient Judaism did not believe that God created everything.

 

[Luke65]

"God did create some things, but not the Heaven and Earth. The usual idea of creating-out-of-nothing, creatio ex nihilo, is a big misunderstanding.”
…
“The traditional view of God the Creator is untenable now.”

Right, nobody in history understood what the text meant, not even the Jews, not even the human author, and obviously not the Holy Spirit!

“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created bara]. When the LORD God made asah] the earth and the heavens…” (Genesis 2:4)

Only Ellen van Wolde can understand these simple words.

Educated beyond their intelligence…

 

[Quatsch]

Right, nobody in history understood what the text meant, not even the Jews, not even the human author, and obviously not the Holy Spirit!

“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created bara]. When the LORD God made asah] the earth and the heavens…” (Genesis 2:4)

Only Ellen van Wolde can understand these simple words.

Educated beyond their intelligence…

I’m more interested in actual replies rather than ad hominems against the author. Thanks.

 

[Quatsch]

I’m more interested in actual replies rather than ad hominems against the author. Thanks.

Let me clarify this. I understand where you’re coming from, but when asked in good faith, this question is worthy of a response beyond questioning the credibility of Ellen van Wolde (whoever she is) and sarcasm.

And as I said, to those who are not Catholic or Christian (or maybe even Jewish), information like this can be a stumbling block. We also see the same phenomenon with respect to the gnostic gospels that have recently gained so much exposure in the media.

 

[clmowry]

From the article:

‘Prof Van Wolde added: “The traditional view of God the Creator is untenable now.”’

That’s a prety bold statement.

It should be interesting to see the response of her peers.

It would be interesting to see the actual analysis, but, if as the article suggests, the basis of her conclusion is that becuase “bara” is associated with two things it must mean “separated” rather than “created” I think she’s on pretty thin ice.

Chuck

 

[John7]

I ran across this article today: God is not the Creator, claims academic

Here is an excerpt:

What are the flaws in her argument and how can I explain them to someone who is not Catholic (or Christian for that matter) but believes that God exists? For those without the Church to guide them, things like this can present quite a stumbling block.

I will also say that when I googled the scholars name who is claiming this (Ellen Van Wolde), I found this page: ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2009/10/a-response-to-ellen-van-wolde-on-genesis-1.html

It contains an interesting response, but I was curious as to what the folks on the CA Forums would come up with.

Blessings,

Q

Here’s some scripture ammo from the Psalms and Isaiah

Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Psalms 134:3 **The LORD that made heaven and earth **bless thee out of Zion.
Psalms 146:6 (the LORD) Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

 

[VociMike]

Here’s some scripture ammo from the Psalms and Isaiah

Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Psalms 134:3 **The LORD that made heaven and earth **bless thee out of Zion.
Psalms 146:6 (the LORD) Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

So all you’ve proven is that certain writers of scripture didn’t understand their own language, didn’t understand their own faith, and got it all wrong.

Just kidding! Nice bit of rebuttal.

 

[John7]

So all you’ve proven is that certain writers of scripture didn’t understand their own language, didn’t understand their own faith, and got it all wrong.

Just kidding! Nice bit of rebuttal.

thanks

 

[StillWondering]

I’m thinking those that would believe that concept that God created creatures but not the solar system and planets would not benefit from explaining this concept but instead would benefit from figuring out what or who they think God really is. Then go form there I say.

I found that those that doubt can keep doubting what we bring up because they have a mentality to doubt. Now if you talk about what they believe, then see if you can make them doubt their complaints. Unless they are very harden or cannot understand humility, I would imagine they will also have trouble saying what they do know. That’s a good opening.

 

[Luke65]

I’m more interested in actual replies rather than ad hominems against the author. Thanks.

I demonstrated the falsity of her theory that God did not create the Heavens and the Earth. Did you not notice that her theory is based on her assumption that bara in Gen. 1:1 does not mean that God “created” the Heavens and the Earth but that He simply “separated” them? And yet, as I showed, in Gen. 2:4 it repeats that God “created” (bara) the Heavens and the Earth, and at the same time says that He “made” (asah) them. The word “bara” does not mean separate, it means create, as it has always been translated. That is not an ad hominem attack, it’s an attack on her absurd theory, which demonstrates her arrogance and stupidity - I just pointed it out, precisely so that no believer would stumble over her foolishness.

 

[imkingdad]

Right, nobody in history understood what the text meant, not even the Jews, not even the human author, and obviously not the Holy Spirit!

“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created bara]. When the LORD God made asah] the earth and the heavens…” (Genesis 2:4)

Only Ellen van Wolde can understand these simple words.

Educated beyond their intelligence…

---

Well put! Amazed that Divine Revelation to her & her alone was Granted after all those other Jewish & Christian scholars missed it for 2000+ years Wow! She is stupendous. Or she has her own little agenda working… Maybe she needs some more research Grant $$ for another visit to Israel?..

Appears to be another attempt to Limit God’s Power & to Bring HIM down form the Heavens to a Time & place where we can control Him… Oh Well!

Btw I like the reference to Sheen’s Quote. all too true…

regards

 

[cassini]

I ran across this article today: God is not the Creator, claims academic

Here is an excerpt:
Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis “in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth” is not a true translation of the Hebrew.

She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world — and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.

She said: “It meant to say that God did create humans and animals, but not the Earth itself.”

What are the flaws in her argument and how can I explain them to someone who is not Catholic (or Christian for that matter) but believes that God exists? For those without the Church to guide them, things like this can present quite a stumbling block.

Blessings, Q

Quatsch, interesting post. You ask what to say to someone who is not Catholic but believes in God. If they are Jew, Muslim or Protestant then all share Scripture and the answers you have received show that this suggestion contradicts Scripture itself because there are many places other than Genesis that revear God is also Creator of earth.

If that doesn’t work try reasoning using some indisputable scientific laws. If God did not create the earth and universe ask where did they come from. Begin with the First Law, you cannot get matter from nothing. If the answer is the only escape route - that it was always here - tell them that this too contradicts science. Say that everything in the universe is undergoing the Second Law of thermodynamics that eventually results in decay, that is zero energy matter that cannot generate anything. and ends in a big load of dust. Give an example, if a house is left uncared for it will decay over time. So, if the universe was here forever it would have decayed to zero energy dust by now. But the universe is far from dust. It is young. The sun has billions of years to go before it is burned out.

So, how can we explain the current state of the earth and universe? Given there is no scientific way to explain the existance of such a young universe it had to be created and not so long ago. Only a God with such powers could do this.

 

[wallstreeterww]

Awesome, subject matter. The maronite church my mom goes to would know alot better then some biased professor about this part of genesis, and its just ludricous that she would be taken seriously, but then again this professors name is all over every atheistic website. We all know how honest and full of integrity they are

 

[Nine_Two]

That name looks familiar.

I seem to recall hearing it attached to some other insane theory. Can’t remember what it is. Guess I could google her.

 

[wallstreeterww]

That name looks familiar.

I seem to recall hearing it attached to some other insane theory. Can’t remember what it is. Guess I could google her.

I just heard of her a few days agao. She must be some kind of kook that wants to rewrite the translation of genesis and the ancient hebrew language. It seems to be picked up on every atheist site but no where else.

 

[grannymh]

I ran across this article today: God is not the Creator, claims academic

Here is an excerpt:

What are the flaws in her argument and how can I explain them to someone who is not Catholic (or Christian for that matter) but believes that God exists? For those without the Church to guide them, things like this can present quite a stumbling block.

I will also say that when I googled the scholars name who is claiming this (Ellen Van Wolde), I found this page: ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2009/10/a-response-to-ellen-van-wolde-on-genesis-1.html

It contains an interesting response, but I was curious as to what the folks on the CA Forums would come up with.

Blessings,

Q

Very smart to google the author. Thank you.

The first thing I noticed on the author’s link was the “Getting Started” column to the left. The first item was “How Ancient Hebrew Poetry Works.” Sounds like the author was writing a thesis about the origins of literature.

The first thing I noticed on the Daily Global link was this:

"She [the author] said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb “bara”, which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean “to create” but to “spatially separate”. Her conclusion is a good example of poetic license. What I mean is that Professor Ellen van Wolde used poetic license. The author of Genesis did not. Please note that figurative speech should not be interchanged with poetic license.

In my humble opinion, the biggest flaw is that Professor Wolde placed Genesis in the wrong genre.

 

[Mintaka]

Apparently, there are three different verbs said as bara’ – to create, to cut, and to fatten up.

So… why isn’t she explaining how God fattened up the heavens and the earth, or how the father served the prodigal son the created calf?

There is traditionally a lot of Jewish wordplay about creation and separation, though. You’ll have noticed that God is pretty plain in the Bible about separating the light and the dark, telling you what you can and can’t eat, etc. When God creates something, in the Jewish view, He also separates it into the correct category.

So she’s not entirely wrong, but she’s missed the point. God created the heavens and the earth, but not as an amorphous blob of chaos. God created the heavens as the heavens, and the earth as the earth, and light as light and dark as dark, and so on.