God Selfish - Ez. 36:22, Isa. 48:11

[Lazerlike42]

Take a look at these passages:

Isaiah 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Ezekial 36:22-24 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.

Now reading these, one doesn’t get the concept of a God who Loves each of His children and “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

On the contrary, He seems to be saying that He doesn’t give a hoot about Israel, but that He is going to save them to make Him look better, that they’ve made a mockery of His name, and so now He is going to save them for the sake of saving His reputation.

Obviously, this is not the correct understanding of the verse.

Thoughts on what’s going on here?

 

[Verbum]

Hi Lazer_,

God cannot be anything but “selfish”. All things come from Him and for Him. Everything that happens is working toward that end. And he does give a hoot: he wants us to enjoy Him for all eternity.

Verbum

 

[agangbern]

Hi Lazer_,

God cannot be anything but “selfish”. All things come from Him and for Him. Everything that happens is working toward that end. And he does give a hoot: he wants us to enjoy Him for all eternity.

Verbum

We can call that “Divine Selfishness”. Its main objective is the perfection and happiness of man. And such happiness could be attained only in union with, and in glorifying, God.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think the key is in the ancient belief in gods. A god was considered only as powerful as the people he rules. With the destruction of Israel (what we know as a deserved divine punishment), other countries would have thought that the god of Israel was powerless.

So how could the Gentiles be drawn to the one true God if God did not restore His people?

 

[quasimodo]

I think the key is in the ancient belief in gods. A god was considered only as powerful as the people he rules. With the destruction of Israel (what we know as a deserved divine punishment), other countries would have thought that the god of Israel was powerless.

So how could the Gentiles be drawn to the one true God if God did not restore His people?

Remember too, that Isaiah is poetry and poetry is not necessarily the best place to get deep theology - it was meant to express emotions first and foremost.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I think the key is in the ancient belief in gods. A god was considered only as powerful as the people he rules. With the destruction of Israel (what we know as a deserved divine punishment), other countries would have thought that the god of Israel was powerless.

So how could the Gentiles be drawn to the one true God if God did not restore His people?

I would agree with you there. Salvation was to come from the Jews and God had made a covenant with them and, even though they didn’t deserve it, God was going to keep to that covenant. He wasn’t going to pick another people as His chosen. Like it or not, they were going to show His glory to the world. He had given His word to Abraham. Of course, this was also to the benefit of Israel.

 

[Lazerlike42]

We know that the truth of God is that He created us to give His Love to. Atheists often object to God because they say He is an egotistical bully who isn’t concenred with anything other than His reputation. My point was that these verses seem to lend support to that claim. God seems to be basically telling Israel that He doesn’t care what happens to them, He just doesn’t want people looking down on Him because of them.

 

[brockmac]

As I read the text, God was letting Israel know that He was going to restore them, but not because they had earned it, but because He had made a promise not to abandon them. He was about to restore them and keep His promise. If He failed to keep His promise, a promise He made on His own name, He would in fact be profaning His name. This would be impossible for God to do.

This is much like when he restores each of us in the confessional. He applies the merits of Christ to us, not because we deserve it, but because He promised to do so. In so doing, he exercises His power and authority just as He did in restoring Israel after the exile.

 

[Lazerlike42]

As I read the text, God was letting Israel know that He was going to restore them, but not because they had earned it, but because He had made a promise not to abandon them. He was about to restore them and keep His promise. If He failed to keep His promise, a promise He made on His own name, He would in fact be profaning His name. This would be impossible for God to do.

This is much like when he restores each of us in the confessional. He applies the merits of Christ to us, not because we deserve it, but because He promised to do so. In so doing, he exercises His power and authority just as He did in restoring Israel after the exile.

That was one thought I had. It does make some sense. There are two reasons I don’t want to simply accept this without seeking out other interpretations:

1. When something is for someone’s “sake,” it doesn’t usually mean that it is due to their deserving it. It usually has to do with benefit. “I will do this for your sake” doesn’t mean “I’ll do this because of your deserving it,” but rather, “I’ll do this for your benefit.” So it seems that God is saying He isn’t delivering Israel for their benefits, but for the benefit of His name.
2. Following on point 1, the context of the rest of the passage speaks of God doing this for the sake of His name because of the view the nations have of Him. So in other words, God is doing what He is doing for the “benefit of His name,” so that His name will be kept in high esteem among the nations. If He meant that He was saving Israel because of the Holiness of His name or His faithfulness to the Covenant, then what other nations thought about Him wouldn’t matter; He’d be doing it anyways.

 

[brockmac]

In a sense, it is important for God’s name to be revered and feared, not only by Israel, but by other nations as well. God knew when he gave these words to His prophet that He would send His Son, through the Jews and that through His Son, all mankind would have the opportunity to come to Him and through Him, obtain eternal life. If God had failed to rescue His people, he would have been seen by the other nations (and Israel) as impotent and a liar. If the world had seen that the God of Israel had failed to restore His chosen people, why would they trust Him to restore the rest of humanity. So what appears to be self concern or arrogance may have a deeper, more loving motive.

However, in the final analysis, it is not our place to judge God. He is our Creator and deserves our humble obdience, loyalty, and fidelity. During this Holy Triduum especially, I think of the humility of our Lord subjecting Himself to the judgement of the Sanhedrin and the Roman authorities and pray that I may not place myself in the position of the Sanhedrin and chose to judge my Lord.

 

[Lazerlike42]

In a sense, it is important for God’s name to be revered and feared, not only by Israel, but by other nations as well. God knew when he gave these words to His prophet that He would send His Son, through the Jews and that through His Son, all mankind would have the opportunity to come to Him and through Him, obtain eternal life. If God had failed to rescue His people, he would have been seen by the other nations (and Israel) as impotent and a liar. If the world had seen that the God of Israel had failed to restore His chosen people, why would they trust Him to restore the rest of humanity. So what appears to be self concern or arrogance may have a deeper, more loving motive.

I agree. The issue with this passage is that it explicitly rejects the notion that God is doing this to benefit Israel in any way, rather than simply affirming that there are other reasons for what is done.

However, in the final analysis, it is not our place to judge God. He is our Creator and deserves our humble obdience, loyalty, and fidelity. During this Holy Triduum especially, I think of the humility of our Lord subjecting Himself to the judgement of the Sanhedrin and the Roman authorities and pray that I may not place myself in the position of the Sanhedrin and chose to judge my Lord.

Faith seeks understanding. To seek understanding in Faith is not to judge the Lord.

 

[utunumsint]

I agree. The issue with this passage is that it explicitly rejects the notion that God is doing this to benefit Israel in any way, rather than simply affirming that there are other reasons for what is done.

Faith seeks understanding. To seek understanding in Faith is not to judge the Lord.

As Christians we know that the Old Covenant cannot save. We cannot justify ourselves before God therefore there is nothing that we can do to merit salvation. The predicament that the Isrealites find themselves in is exactly where the Old Covenant should lead them: death and exile. Estrangement from God.

The purpose of God in saving the Isrealites is to bind them to himself with a new covenant of peace. A covenant that is not like the old covenant.

This is entirely for the benefit of Isreal and the rest of the nations. It is God’s plan. It corresponds to God’s attributes as described by Moses in Numbers 14. God is Kind and Merciful, but demands justice as well. In Christ, his justice and mercy meet.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

I agree. The issue with this passage is that it explicitly rejects the notion that God is doing this to benefit Israel in any way, rather than simply affirming that there are other reasons for what is done.

Faith seeks understanding. To seek understanding in Faith is not to judge the Lord.

Ezech 33:11 Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel?
14 And though I say to the wicked man that he shall surely die, if he turns away from his sin and does what is right and just,
16 None of the sins he committed shall be held against him; he has done what is right and just, he shall surely live.

1 Timothy 2:4 Paul says " "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.