God the Deceiver - Heretical?

[Neil_Anthony]

Interesting theory which allows us to keep Man at the center of creation as opposed to an evolutionary blip on the screen of a massive evolutionary chain. This allows us to say that God’s primary intent was to create mankind.

However, from a theological perspective, this doesn’t seem to fit with the account given in Genesis.

1-God created heaven and earth.
2-God created the stars, etc…
7-God creates humanity.

But given this, it still doesn’t mean God’s primary intent was not to create humanity or that humanity is not his crowning acheivement. Because he says after he created humanity that he considered it “very good” (Gen 1:31) as opposed to just “good”.

God bless,
Ut

So are you saying that my way of looking at things is incorrect, because it disagrees with the order of creation given in Genesis?

 

[utunumsint]

So are you saying that my way of looking at things is incorrect, because it disagrees with the order of creation given in Genesis?

Genesis (theologically) doesn’t seem to support your theory. Whether your theory is correct is something I think we cannot verify. But in the same sense, I cannot verify that all of you are not just figments of my imagination and I am the only person who actually exists. Still, I make this assumption based on the physical evidence I see around me. I trust in the physical evidence. Otherwise, I’d probably go crazy.

God bless,
Ut

 

[VociMike]

Okay… but my own god-given reason shows me that these timelines are something else. So one of us has to be wrong. How come if my reason is correct, you call it fake, and if yours is correct, you call it real? It’s not God’s fault if you aren’t advanced enough to grasp these ideas.
Like it’s not God’s fault if you set out on a hike to get to the base of the rainbow, which can be clearly seen to end, say, 10 miles away.

But it’s not “my” reason, it’s the cumulative experience of the entire human race, and actually of all creation. Cause and effect. Movement through the 4 dimensions of space and time. Physical laws which we understand both instinctively and intellectually, and which yield ever closer correspondence with the reality we observe.

I’m still interested in your explanation as to why God “simulated” the Big Bang, if it didn’t really happen.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

But it’s not “my” reason, it’s the cumulative experience of the entire human race, and actually of all creation. Cause and effect. Movement through the 4 dimensions of space and time. Physical laws which we understand both instinctively and intellectually, and which yield ever closer correspondence with the reality we observe.

Lots of humans have also surmised that this could be an illusion. Lots of humans have mistaken things through the ages.

I’m still interested in your explanation as to why God “simulated” the Big Bang, if it didn’t really happen.

Simulated is your word here. God has to make all of these things happen for them to be part of space-time. You could say he simulates all of it. God makes everything work as it does. The big bang makes a nice backdrop for the present world because a world with laws of physics that ours has would logically begin with a big bang.

A lesser being might have just put a sudden stop at some point in time, or a wall in space at the end of the space we needed. But God is perfect and did things right. It’s a work of art.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Genesis (theologically) doesn’t seem to support your theory. Whether your theory is correct is something I think we cannot verify. But in the same sense, I cannot verify that all of you are not just figments of my imagination and I am the only person who actually exists. Still, I make this assumption based on the physical evidence I see around me. I trust in the physical evidence. **Otherwise, I’d probably go crazy.
**
God bless,
Ut

LOL, maybe that’s what happened to me!

I suspect that other people are souls stuck in this spacetime game thingy like I am. Although sometimes I think maybe atheists don’t have souls. Maybe that’s why they don’t believe in souls. After all, if you don’t have one, how could you understand? And if you have one, how could you doubt their existence?

 

[VociMike]

Simulated is your word here. God has to make all of these things happen for them to be part of space-time. You could say he simulates all of it. God makes everything work as it does. The big bang makes a nice backdrop for the present world because a world with laws of physics that ours has would logically begin with a big bang.

A lesser being might have just put a sudden stop at some point in time, or a wall in space at the end of the space we needed. But God is perfect and did things right. It’s a work of art.

Well, based on current data there is apparently a “wall at the end of space” about 15 billion light years away.

And yes, creation is a stupendous work of art. And it makes more sense, IMO, to believe that God used the laws he created as a part of that creation, rather than circumventing them and then leaving vast amounts of evidence to fool us into thinking he didn’t circumvent them. So much effort, and to what purpose? To assure that no physical scientist or person who understands the physical world will ever believe in God? Because I don’t see any other outcome, if what you believe is true.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Well, based on current data there is apparently a “wall at the end of space” about 15 billion light years away.

And yes, creation is a stupendous work of art. And it makes more sense, IMO, to believe that God used the laws he created as a part of that creation, rather than circumventing them and then leaving vast amounts of evidence to fool us into thinking he didn’t circumvent them. So much effort, and to what purpose? To assure that no physical scientist or person who understands the physical world will ever believe in God? Because I don’t see any other outcome, if what you believe is true.

But God would have to put all that effort into it either way. Something created can’t go on existing and behaving according to ‘laws of nature’ without God holding them in existence. And since God is omnipotent, the ‘effort’ isn’t a problem.

And I’m not saying God circumvents the laws… the whole universe is designed based on those rules. The laws of nature are what determine what space-time looks like. They were God’s master plan. But all points in spacetime, including all points in different times, come into being instantaneously to God. God doesn’t sit around waiting for things to change in creation. it’s all there before Him, past, present and future, and it always was.

 

[SeekingCatholic]

If God created everything before last Thursday ‘as an afterthought’ it doesn’t mean Jesus and the other Christian events didn’t really happen. It just changes the order God made them in. Of course, if I didn’t really do the actions I remember doing before last Thursday, God won’t hold me accountable for them. Doesn’t matter anyway, since I went to confession since last Thursday. I’m not sure if Last Thursday ism is true or not, but I believe Jesus existed. So if God created the past last Thursday, the past must still be real. More real than dinosaurs? I’m not sure. What does real mean?

So, did the Christian events occur before or after Last Thursday? Were dinosaurs existent before or after the first man? You apparently believe in a God Who can change history. Tell me, then why won’t He change history again, so that a 15-billion year old universe and the Christian events didn’t really happen?

Occam’s razor can be disproved easily with a single counter-example. Just think of anything that turned out more complicated than it had to be, and its disproven as a logical rule. Rather, it’s just a rule of thumb which can’t prove anything. You never know when Occam’s Razor will be correct or incorrect. I don’t like it for that reason. I don’t think it has any place in reason.

No, Occam’s razor is true for inductive reasoning, which can be formally shown via a Bayesian approach. Showing a single counter-example doesn’t disprove it, for Occam’s razor only deals with the posterior probabilities, which are never (or almost never) exactly one. Occams’ razor states that it is much more likely that the more parsimonious model will turn out to be the true one.

So, again I ask you, what is your assurance that God won’t change history again, to a 100-trillion year old universe where Christianity never happened, given that you believe in a God Who can change and has changed history?

 

[utunumsint]

LOL, maybe that’s what happened to me!

I suspect that other people are souls stuck in this spacetime game thingy like I am. Although sometimes I think maybe atheists don’t have souls. Maybe that’s why they don’t believe in souls. After all, if you don’t have one, how could you understand? And if you have one, how could you doubt their existence?

Well we probably can’t scientifically verify this one either. Still, it makes a lot of sense .

God bless,
Ut

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So, did the Christian events occur before or after Last Thursday? Were dinosaurs existent before or after the first man? You apparently believe in a God Who can change history.

Well, ‘before’ the way we normally use it just means that it is to the left on the timeline. So by definition, the events on Wednesday and all the preceding days occur ‘before’ Thursday.

What would it mean then to ‘change history’? If God erased everything before last Thursday and drew in some new stuff in their place, then we would have noticed this back when we were living through it. For God to change it ‘now’ is meaningless to us, since we can’t see the past directly anymore. Why would you care if he ‘changed’ that… only God could see that it changed.

Tell me, then why won’t He change history again, so that a 15-billion year old universe and the Christian events didn’t really happen?

God doesn’t change, and if God is in spacetime at 7BC then God is in spacetime at 7BC.

No, Occam’s razor is true for inductive reasoning, which can be formally shown via a Bayesian approach. Showing a single counter-example doesn’t disprove it, for Occam’s razor only deals with the posterior probabilities, which are never (or almost never) exactly one. Occams’ razor states that it is much more likely that the more parsimonious model will turn out to be the true one.

Oh, so Occam’s Razor says that its more likely that this is true rather than that. Fine, but it doesn’t rule anything out.

So, again I ask you, what is your assurance that God won’t change history again, to a 100-trillion year old universe where Christianity never happened, given that you believe in a God Who can change and has changed history?

See above, I answered it the first time

 

[SeekingCatholic]

Well, ‘before’ the way we normally use it just means that it is to the left on the timeline. So by definition, the events on Wednesday and all the preceding days occur ‘before’ Thursday.

What would it mean then to ‘change history’? If God erased everything before last Thursday and drew in some new stuff in their place, then we would have noticed this back when we were living through it. For God to change it ‘now’ is meaningless to us, since we can’t see the past directly anymore. Why would you care if he ‘changed’ that… only God could see that it changed.

No we wouldn’t know it. Our memories would change to reflect the new history. Your position is Adam is created, and then a 15 billion year backdrop of history is created. IOW the 15 billion year history didn’t exist immediately after Adam was created. History was changed, apparently without Adam’s knowledge. So God could change history again in such a manner that we wouldn’t know it.

Oh, so Occam’s Razor says that its more likely that this is true rather than that. Fine, but it doesn’t rule anything out.

Of course not. Can you prove there isn’t a teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between Jupiter and Saturn? Occam’s Razor is a normal fact of reasoning by induction.

See above, I answered it the first time

No you didn’t. God could change history, and change our memories to reflect the changed history. What assurance do you have He won’t do that?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

No we wouldn’t know it. Our memories would change to reflect the new history. Your position is Adam is created, and then a 15 billion year backdrop of history is created. IOW the 15 billion year history didn’t exist immediately after Adam was created. History was changed, apparently without Adam’s knowledge. So God could change history again in such a manner that we wouldn’t know it.

Well, in “God’s time” - which is just a rough analogy, since God doesn’t change - He creates all of spacetime in an instant. I said that the time before Adam was an “afterthought” which implies that God did it at a later time, but God isn’t in time. Somehow I’m saying that in God’s sequence, He first conceived of present-Earth as a place for Adam and Eve to go after being kicked out of the paradise/Garden, came up with the physical laws, and then designed a 15-billion-(light)-year-universe around it. Then in an instant it all comes into being, past present future up down right left back front here there. It’s not as if God altered the stuff to the left of Adam on the timeline while Adam was already experiencing life in spacetime.

No you didn’t. God could change history, and change our memories to reflect the changed history. What assurance do you have He won’t do that?

I don’t really think God would change our memories. I don’t think it’s the same thing. I’m not saying he changed Adam’s past after Adam was already walking around