God the Father and obedience

[invisiblewitnes]

Hi,

I want to ask you to pray fror wisdom on this question in addition to discussion. Please pray for some of my friends and family, especially my friend Andrew, to get an answer to the tension in their minds regarding this sort of question. The question is awkwardly worded, but it is meant to provoke the idea that I am sure you will recognize.

Jesus was obedient to God the Father. Who or what is God the Father obedient to? Don’t get to caught up in the wording. I am not implying there is some God above God the Father. If you pray on this question and God gives you some insight into this matter, please share. But most of all please pray for my friends and family and myself to recognize the nature of the dilemma implied by this question and be able to hear and see God’s word to us in our lives. I think the problems I see in most people I know regard a confusion as to what underlies God the Father’s will, and obedience. God the Father does not need to obey anyone else, but then what is He obeying. Pope Benedict XVI touched on this topic in his Regensburg lecture I know. Even if you don’t write anything in this forum thread, I will ask that you include understanding and illumination on what people need to know about God and how He works in your prayer for my friends and family and all those I meet and myself as well. Whatever helps us to please God in our actions and obedience, please pray for. And if you have any insight, offer it here as well.

God bless you.

 

[in_servitude]

I’ve been considering this question - I was going to post it, but did a search and found that it was already posted - almost exactly as I was thinking.

I have prayed on this, and I have a thought that I’d like to share.

Luke 23:34

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” They divided his garments by casting lots.

I think that God the Father is made to obey God the Son in the above quoted statement. And, in general, I wonder if this is why we must approach God the Father through Christ. Because, otherwise, God the Father would place his Divine Justice upon us, and it would crush us. Christ, however, mediates for us, and through his Divine Mercy, we can approach God the Father.

Thus, God the Father must be doing something that he otherwise would not will of Himself out of obedience to God the Son.

Just a thought that I have - and I would very much appreciate having this set to tatters if it is off base.

 

[Usagi]

Hmm, I’m not sure “obedience” is quite the right term, but the Father is true to His own nature. Even though He is free of any external constraint and has the power to accomplish anything that He might will, we can be assured that there are certain things He can never become or do (such as anything wicked, unjust, or unloving), because to do so would contradict Who He fundamentally is.

Usagi

 

[mercytruth]

It would seem that since God the Father does not lie, He is faithful to His revealed word…His revealed Word in His Only-Begotten Son. His Only-Begotten Son is in turn faithful to God his Father.

If one could ever grasp this concept, it would seem to imply that all that is true revelation from God the Father, is true and can not be abrogated. God the Father must be true/faithful to that which He has revealed to His only-begotten Son and through his only-begotten Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

However, I do not think one could define God’s faithulness to His revelation as obedience.

In addition, God the Father has given all authority in heaven and on earth to His only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ,( according to St. Paul and King David).

But the same apostle says that all authority in heaven and in earth does not include authority over His Father who has granted Jesus Christ all this authority. When the Son of God has subjected all things, then the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ will subject all things to His Father, that God might be all in all. Which is the ultimate will of God our Father for His creation.

The more important question for us is whether we are being obedient to the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Personally, this is the greatest of all challenges for my soul, obedience to God’s will. I know that it is impossible without denial of myself, and taking up my cross for the sake
of Jesus Christ, who will one day subject all things to His Father, that God might be all in all.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[in_servitude]

Hmm, I’m not sure “obedience” is quite the right term, but the Father is true to His own nature. Even though He is free of any external constraint and has the power to accomplish anything that He might will, we can be assured that there are certain things He can never become or do (such as anything wicked, unjust, or unloving), because to do so would contradict Who He fundamentally is.

My opinion is that this concept of obedience is not a simple thing to grasp. So, it does seem profitable to discuss it. I’m hoping to learn more through the discussion.

We will not run off and do something that is against our nature. A mentally healthy person would not choose to harm themselves in ordinary circumstances. That choice, therefore, has nothing to do with obedience.

I view obedience as making a choice to do something because you desire to follow a rule or an order and NOT because it is your normal nature. Thus, we are in a strange place where we still are choosing our of our own desire - but it is one of our own internal desires (following) pitted against another (our nature).

When we are disobedient toward God (sin), we are not following His laws, but rather our own concupiscence.

Why do we need Christ as a mediator between us and the Father? I say that it is because Christ is asking the Father to do something that He would ordinarily not do - judge us less harshly than we deserve. That is how I see the Father making a choice - to follow the Will of Christ over His nature to give us a just judgement.

Do I have the reason that we require a mediator in Christ placed askew?

 

[Nita]

Scripture tells us that “Jesus” (the one Person with 2 natures, human and divine, distinct from each other) was obedient to His Father. In His Divine nature, His Divine will would always be the same as the Father’s; it would not be what we think of as a matter of “obedience”. But when the Second Person united Himself to a human nature (and was given the name Jesus after His human birth) there was also a human will present in Him – a human will like ours - a human will that is less/beneath (I don’t know what word to use) a/His Divine will. Human wills have to make a choice to serve God or not, to be obedient or not. Jesus, in His human will had to make that choice. He chose to be obedient in all things, “even to death”.
Phil 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Original sin was committed by a human will; redemption was accomplished thru a human will,

 

[Usagi]

I am uncomfortable with the idea of the Son’s will overcoming the Father’s, and with any split between Father and Son on the issue of justice vs. mercy. The Son pleading for us before the Father may be a useful image sometimes, but I think you run the risk of villainizing the Father if you take it too literally. (Ditto, but even more so, with the similar image of Mary pleading with God to delay or soften His wrath.)

Indeed, I’m not sure if, theologically, the Son and the Father even have distinct wills that can differ on this or any other topic. The Son also has a human will that may differ in its initial impulses from the Divine will (as in Gethsemane) but is ultimately obedient to God, but I’m pretty sure that God/the Trinity has but a single will.

Usagi

 

[mercytruth]

My opinion is that this concept of obedience is not a simple thing to grasp. So, it does seem profitable to discuss it. I’m hoping to learn more through the discussion.

We will not run off and do something that is against our nature. A mentally healthy person would not choose to harm themselves in ordinary circumstances. That choice, therefore, has nothing to do with obedience.

I view obedience as making a choice to do something because you desire to follow a rule or an order and NOT because it is your normal nature. Thus, we are in a strange place where we still are choosing our of our own desire - but it is one of our own internal desires (following) pitted against another (our nature).

When we are disobedient toward God (sin), we are not following His laws, but rather our own concupiscence.

Why do we need Christ as a mediator between us and the Father? I say that it is because Christ is asking the Father to do something that He would ordinarily not do - judge us less harshly than we deserve. That is how I see the Father making a choice - to follow the Will of Christ over His nature to give us a just judgement.

Do I have the reason that we require a mediator in Christ placed askew?

I don’t think your understanding of Jesus Christ being a mediator between us and God the Father is askew. Jesus Christ is called the high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek, forever making intercession for us.

God the Father it would seem, judged Israel and the nations more judiciously prior to Jesus Christ becoming our mediator and high priest.

Jesus Christ is also called our advocate (of mercy) before God the Father. We also have an adversary, or prosecuting attorney in Satan who is always accusing us before God the Father. St. James says that 'mercy triumphs over justice".

However, God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son. So it was the will of God the Father for his only-begotten Son to become this mediator, high priest and advocate on our behalf.

As I see it, when Jesus Christ mediates and advocates on our behalf, he is doing the will of God the Father in the heavenly courtroom where Satan clamors for God our Father to mete out His justice for our sins. God the Father decides for mercy because His beloved Son died for our sins, and they who call upon the name of Jesus Christ will receive pardon.

As I understand it, since God the Father is both justice and mercy, His mercy was held back by His justice in the days of the OT. Since the sacrifice of His beloved Son for our sins, and for the sins of the world, the justice of God is held back by His mercy through the intercession of Jesus Christ.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[Rosinante]

Your question seems to be in essence, an injuiry into the nature of the Trinity.

I’ll simply refer you to St. Augustine’s treatise on the Trinity–(very long)–and, for a lighter read–much, much smaller–a primer if you will–St. Augustine’s Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love…

St. Augusine also shares an anecdote of a vision he had about a child digging a hole on the beach, in order to shovel the ocean into it–in order to illustrate the notion of fitting the Trinity into human understanding.

Point being…your not in bad company, when you acknowledge the difficulty of understanding the Trinity.

FWIW.

VIVAT JESUS!