God the Father as Creator

[Darokx]

Hi,

I have always known that God the Father is father in all eternity because God is a Trinity and Jesus is eternally with the Father. And with the same reasons, God is also eternal Love.

But I’m confused about the Father being Creator.

My question is when did the Father become Creator? Can we say that He is Creator in all eternity. If yes, how?

Or is the Father only Creator just after the events described in Genesis 1? If yes, what was he before creation? Only a Father?

Thanks a lot.

 

[White_Tree]

So there’s a couple of issues to tackle here.

First, it’s not clear that the Father, acting alone, can rightly be called “The Creator” because remember that He shares that act of creation with the other two Persons of the Trinity.

Recall how creation was accomplished in Genesis:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God [Ruach Elohim, the Holy Spirit] moved upon the face of the waters. And God said [i.e. used the Verb, the Word, the Son], Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:1-3

(See also John 1:1-3, in which the Evangelist states that all things were made through the Word.)

So all three persons are present in that act of Creation.

Furthermore, St. Paul draws a direct connection between the Holy Spirit and sexuality in man (1 Cor 6:18-19). Sex is the means by which the process of Creation continues in the modern world, and the Holy Spirit is a necessary part of that.

So I think it is incorrect to assert that the Father alone can be considered Creator. The reality of the Father is deeper than that, and He is not limited only to the single act of the creation of the physical universe.

The second aspect of your question has to do with time and eternity. Creation happened at a moment in time. But God is eternal, outside of time.

We often think of eternity as “forever,” meaning, time stretched out without end. But that’s not really what it is. Eternity is outside of time. God said to Moses, אֶֽהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶֽהְיֶה (Eheieh Asher Eheieh, “I am that I am”). In other words, an Eternal Becoming.

So God’s act of Becoming, or Creation, is not something that happened at a moment in time, but is something that happens eternally.

 

[Maximian]

St. Paul draws a direct connection between the Holy Spirit and sexuality in man (1 Cor 6:18-19). Sex is the means by which the process of Creation continues in the modern world, and the Holy Spirit is a necessary part of that.

I think you are making quite a leap there.

However I like your post very much.

You make a point which was obvious to Catholics before but is increasingly forgotten due, I think, to Protestant influence, which is that God is outside time. This is why we have the continuous sacrifice of tge Mass, whereas Protestantism sees the sacrifices of the cross as a single event inside time.

 

[Uriel1]

I’m confused about the Father being Creator.

My question is when did the Father become Creator? Can we say that He is Creator in all eternity. If yes, how?

Or is the Father only Creator just after the events described in Genesis 1? If yes, what was he before creation? Only a Father?

We know that the Trinity is three persons in one God, and that God is One; three times in Isaiah 45, God says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God except Me” but He had previously said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’” Genesis 1:26
“And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us.’” Genesis 3:22
Elsewhere in the Old Testament God talks of Himself in the plural; He does not use El, but uses Elohim. Elohim is one of the titles of God, used over 2400 times in the Old Testament, and is in the plural form corroborating the "us "in Gen 1:26 and 3:22 .

These Old Testament insights into the trinity demonstrate that the Father was not alone. and in the New Testament John 1 continues the theme " 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it."

 

[Darokx]

So God’s act of Becoming, or Creation, is not something that happened at a moment in time, but is something that happens eternally.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with God, not just the Father, being Creator. Sorry for not being clear on that in the first place.

What do you mean by God’s act of becoming? Does this mean, He created Himself? No pun intended, I am just not that well versed in Philosophy and trying to get more explanation.

Thanks to all who replied. Appreciate all of it.

 

[EndTimes]

My question is when did the Father become Creator?

There is no “how” or “time” … HE IS!

 

[White_Tree]

What do you mean by God’s act of becoming? Does this mean, He created Himself? No pun intended, I am just not that well versed in Philosophy and trying to get more explanation.

Kind of.

The statement was about the Hebrew phrase אהיה אשר אהיה. The verb היה has a couple of different meanings. It can mean “to be,” and it can also mean “to transition” from one thing into another, or in other words, “to become.”

It also has no tense. Quoting G.S. Ogden:

The normal understanding of the ‘tenses’ of Hebrew verbs is that… they tell us what type of action is involved, and nothing as to when the event took place.

So God’s tense-less answer to Moses suggests a timeless, eternal act of Being, or Becoming.

Creation is part of that Eternal Becoming. The Zohar states the following:

Rabbi Shimon said: The Holy Name [יהוה] is mentioned only in connection with a completed world, as it is written: “In the day that Hashem Elohim made the earth and the heavens.” From this it follows that one should not mention the Holy Name in vain, as it is written: “You shall not take the Name of Hashem your Elohim in vain.”

Rabbi Yosi said: What is the blessing? It is the Holy Name, being the source of blessing for the whole universe. A blessing does not dwell in an empty place, nor rests upon it, and therefore it is written: "You shall not take the Name of Hashem your Elohim in vain.“

Many scholars have noticed a difference between the way God is referred to in the Creation stories. God is first referred to as אלהים (Elohim) in describing the creation of the world in six days, and then as אלהים יהוה (Jehovah Elohim) starting in Gen 2:4 (only after the creation of the world).

Modern scholars usually assume this discrepancy is due to the different creation stories having different authors. The rabbis in the Zohar had a different view. Their conclusion was that the different ways of referring to God was not due to two disparate stories being sloppily pasted together by a careless editor, but rather that the act of Creation was itself necessary for that aspect of God, represented by יהוה, to come into Being, because it “cannot dwell in an empty place” and is therefore only mentioned in association with a completed world.

That has a special significance for us as Christians, because the name of Jesus in Hebrew could be written as יהשוה, or in other words, the Holy Name, יהוה, plus one additional letter in the middle, ש, suggesting a special relationship between Jesus and the aspect of God represented by יהוה.

A conclusion we can draw from that is that “in order for Jesus to be incarnated, first the world has to be created.” It seems almost silly to state it that way, but remember this is God and we are talking about spiritual realities. All this suggests that Creation really is a fundamental aspect of God’s eternal act of Becoming.

 

[EndTimes]

So God’s tense-less answer to Moses suggests a timeless, eternal act of Being, or Becoming.

YHWH – I AM WHO AM… I AM… . BEING EXISTENCE… ETERNITY…

In order to have been Incarnated - Jesus had to be with the Father - assisting IN Creation.

Jesus was with the Father at Creation
Jesus is God’s WORD…
GOD’s WORD is the Activation of Creation

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be Holy and blameless in his sight.

JESUS - "Before Abraham came TO BE? I AM!"

 

[meltzerboy2]

Have you ever read the Jewish response to the notion that G-d (Elohim) denotes three Persons, a trinitarian G-d? It is rather convincing according to my bias. First of all, Moses is referred to as Elohim in the Torah; certainly this plural form does not mean that Moses consists of three Persons or is a god. Second, other singular words are given in their plural in the Hebrew Scriptures, but clearly denote singularity, including “old age,” “youth,” “lord,” and "compassion."Third, when Elohim does indeed refer to plurality, it denotes the pagan gods. And fourth, the use of Elohim in this context denotes the all-inclusive power of G-d, which includes every type of power. It is the magisterial voice. There is much more to the argument but I thought I’d just give a taste.

 

[christismylord]

Genesis 1:1-2 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

Clearly there is a difference between the first mention of “God” (the whole Trinity who created all) and the Spirit of God later mentioned (God in nature, a distinct part of the Trinity.)

Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Again, the word “our” clearly connotes a pluralism in the Godhead, otherwise, God would be talking only to His “one self,”…and would have said “My.”

And for Christians who believe Jesus is God Incarnate,

John 1:1-2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”

Again, clearly talking of separate “Persons,” referred to as “God,” (presumably the Father, or referring to both the Father and Holy Spirit) and “the Word,” (which is Jesus,) and it says “the Word” was God. So we know that Jesus is also God in nature, simply the third “Person” of God.

We know that the Word is referring to Jesus because in John 1:14, it says “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

So clearly the Word is Jesus, and He comes from the Father as the Father’s eternally begotten Son (co-eternal and co-equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit)

From Scripture, we can most certainly know that there are three distinct “Persons” of God.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Only from the New Testament, not from the Hebrew Bible. I already presented part of the argument; I am not going to rehash it or further derail the thread. That is not my intention. I was just reacting to another member’s post. BTW, I don’t even think most Christian apologists rely on Genesis to prove the case for the Trinity.

 

[Uriel1]

Have you ever read the Jewish response to the notion that G-d (Elohim) denotes three Persons, a trinitarian G-d? It is rather convincing according to my bias. First of all, Moses is referred to as Elohim in the Torah; certainly this plural form does not mean that Moses consists of three Persons or is a god. Second, other singular words are given in their plural in the Hebrew Scriptures, but clearly denote singularity, including “old age,” “youth,” “lord,” and "compassion."Third, when Elohim does indeed refer to plurality, it denotes the pagan gods. And fourth, the use of Elohim in this context denotes the all-inclusive power of G-d, which includes every type of power. It is the magisterial voice. There is much more to the argument but I thought I’d just give a taste.

Ok, you don’t give a reference so let me assume you refer to Ex 4:16 Here, Moses is no more a God than Aaron is a mouth, yet Moses is compared with God in the same way that Aaron is compared with a mouth.

The Hebrew/English interlinear reads; “and he shall be for you as mouth, and you shall be for him as God .” This then is a simple double simile. The Hebrew word translated as “as” is the particle le [pronounced “leh”] which in this context should be taken to be simply as constructing a simile.

I hope this is helpful

 

[EndTimes]

Have you ever read the Jewish response to the notion that G-d (Elohim) denotes three Persons, a trinitarian G-d? It is rather convincing according to my bias.

Curious - So… Do you believe (or almost believe) in the Trinity: Father, Jesus, God’s Spirit?

 

[meltzerboy2]

I meant that I, as all of us, have a bias due to our upbringing in a given religion. I was born a Jew, I have lived a Jew to the best of my ability and with plenty of mistakes, and I will die a Jew. Jews believe in the unity of Gd, a unity unlike any other unity. So no, I do not believe in a trinitarian Gd. There have been times, however, when I thought that maybe Jesus was the Messiah, but never divine, never Gd Himself. There is a group of Jews who believe this: they are called Nazarene Jews.

 

[EndTimes]

I meant that I, as all of us, have a bias due to our upbringing in a given religion. I was born a Jew, I have lived a Jew to the best of my ability and with plenty of mistakes, and I will die a Jew. Jews believe in the unity of Gd, a unity unlike any other unity. So no, I do not believe in a trinitarian Gd. There have been times, however, when I thought that maybe Jesus was the Messiah, but never divine, never Gd Himself. There is a group of Jews who believe this: they are called Nazarene Jews.

I understand… He was ‘fathered’ by God. God’s actual WORD. Not easy for most to grasp.

And Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Apostles and 1000’s of the earliest followers of Christ aka Christians remained ethnic, etc… Jews while He and they walked this planet

Part of Solid Scriptural Prophecy concerns the Return of Many non-Christians Jews to Rabbi Yeshua

The Actuality of FAITH - is not at all easy for many to fully grasp until they possess it.

All that said, I would never say that you are condemned.

Some Jews in Israel are awaiting the Coming of Messiah.

As the List and Signs of call it the immanence of Jesus’ Return continue to unfurl,
IMHO? that just might be the straws which nudge some to appraise the End of Days… Differently

_

 

[christismylord]

“(Exodus 4:16) Here, Moses is no more a God than Aaron is a mouth, yet Moses is compared with God in the same way that Aaron is compared with a mouth.

The Hebrew/English interlinear reads; “and he shall be for you as mouth, and you shall be for him as God .” This then is a simple double simile. The Hebrew word translated as “ as” is the particle le [pronounced “leh”] which in this context should be taken to be simply as constructing a simile.”

(From @Uriel1’s previous post, it was deleted but I love it and completely agree…hope it’s ok that I repost it )

The verse is not meant to be taken literally…Just like Moses is not God, but God is…Moses is not three Persons, but God is.

Also: Nehemiah 9:20 says “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them”

Clearly differentiates the Spirit from the Father from whom it proceeds

Psalms 51:11 “Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.”

Again, David is asking for God to keep His Holy Spirit with him. David does not say “do not take your whole Self away,” clearly David sees a difference between the Holy Spirit and the whole of the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit is one of the (three) essential Persons of God. In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is presented as the second Person of God, the guide that would be with the people. The New Testament calls the Holy Spirit our Guide, Advocate, Counselor, and Comforter. (The Christ was still to come and be revealed as God Incarnate )

 

[Uriel1]

christismylord thank you for retrieving part of my post. I did not intend to delete it so if you could flag it and ask the moderator to reinstate it I’d be grateful

 

[porthos11]

Creation, as a divine Act, is an action of the Trinity, since it is not possible for one divine Person to act separately of the others, otherwise, there would be division in God, and contradicts his divine simplicity.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are Creator.

However, we address the Father primarily as the Creator by appropriation, since the act of Creation closely mirrors his being the generating principle of the Trinity.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Thank you for the clarification. However, my larger point is that Elohim is frequently used throughout the Hebrew Bible, including in Genesis, when Gd addresses His heavenly court and includes them. For example, when Adam and Eve are driven out of the Garden of Eden, Gd addresses His angels (Cherubim) and informs them that Adam and Eve had wished to become “like one of us” by eating of the Tree of Knowledge. That phrase “one of us” surely refers to Gd’s magisterial, and at the same time humble, address to the heavenly court, rather than implying three distinct Persons of Gd. There are several other instances of the same kind of speech throughout the Hebrew Bible. And, as previously stated, there are other words as well which take on a plural form but clearly refer to singular people, objects, or emotions.

 

[Uriel1]

That phrase “one of us” surely refers to Gd’s magisterial, and at the same time humble, address to the heavenly court, rather than implying three distinct Persons of Gd.

Lets look at the thoughts of a deep expert, Mark D. Futato, Robert L. Maclellan Professor of Old Testament and Academic Dean at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando.

Dr. Futato received his Ph.D. and M.A. in Semitic Languages from the Catholic University of America. He specializes in Hebrew language and is author of the book “Beginning Biblical Hebrew” (Eisenbrauns, 2003).

Let’s take a look at the meaning of YHWH Elohim.

First, YHWH is a proper noun, the personal name of Israel’s deity. Second, Elohim is a common noun, used to refer to deity.

Elohim is actually a plural noun (indicated by the /im/ as in cherubim and seraphim). Sometimes the referent is plural. At other times the referent is singular. Like most words in English, Elohim can mean several things. Sometimes Elohim refers to plural “gods,” as in “You shall have no other gods before me” (Deuteronomy 5:7). At other times it refers to the singular “God,” as in “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). It is clear in this latter example that even though the form of the word Elohim is plural, the referent is singular, because the verb with which Elohim is used (“created”) is singular in Hebrew.

end of part one