God & the Universe

[oikumene]

I am a devout catholic. However these last few months I have been undergoing some great problems emotionally and health wise and thus have tested my faith. As now I have been experiencing great loss of faith in God, my mind is exploring the real existence of God.

In the Cathecism of the Catholic Church I read paragraphs 36 to 38 and the Church instructs that by reason alone we cannot come to know God.

My real problem is that concerns the Catholic faith with the Universe. I, as an amateur astronomer, I come to experience the vast and the immensity of the cosmos which make a small mind like mine spin and can make you insane.

How come that with all these galaxies, billions of stars, trillions of planets, our relative young planetary civilization (7,000 years), the Creator came into our planet to redeem the Universe in such an insignificant globe in a insignificant galaxy? This is a great mystery and how can you take all of this on faith? Why God created this immensity? What is the point? Such waste of space?

Has the Church explored this kind of subject?

 

[FAB]

My real problem is that concerns the Catholic faith with the Universe. I, as an amateur astronomer, I come to experience the vast and the immensity of the cosmos which make a small mind like mine spin and can make you insane.

How come that with all these galaxies, billions of stars, trillions of planets, our relative young planetary civilization (7,000 years), the Creator came into our planet to redeem the Universe in such an insignificant globe in a insignificant galaxy? This is a great mystery and how can you take all of this on faith? Why God created this immensity? What is the point? Such waste of space?

Has the Church explored this kind of subject?

I to have looked at the cosmos, I am repeatedly facinated by the new discoveries that are being made and the infinite natue of it all. Two things come to mind, one is how great our God who created it all and second how little mankind truely knows about any thing of existance. You indicate that we are an insignaficant galaxy, that sounds like a line from a Star Trek episode. We are not insignaficant as we believe through our gift of faith, and yes reason alone cannot get you all the way there. Faith and reason are not seperated in our religion, John-Paul II said we must use both to have a full understanding of our world and if we use one without the other will will never have that understanding.
Not knowing what is out there is space, I can’t say it’s a waste of space. Perhaps a day will come when our technology will allow us to explore past the moon or Mars, but in the mean time I can enjoy the gift of the spirit of wonder and awe, the stenghten by belief in my God who has no limits. I know that is faith and not reason, but I can reason that the world and universe is no accident.

Peace,
FAB

 

[VociMike]

My real problem is that concerns the Catholic faith with the Universe. I, as an amateur astronomer, I come to experience the vast and the immensity of the cosmos which make a small mind like mine spin and can make you insane.

How come that with all these galaxies, billions of stars, trillions of planets, our relative young planetary civilization (7,000 years), the Creator came into our planet to redeem the Universe in such an insignificant globe in a insignificant galaxy?

OK, if you were God which globe in which galaxy would be your choice? God also came into the world in an insignificant town in a positively humble manger. His idea of what is significant is not the same as ours.

This is a great mystery and how can you take all of this on faith? Why God created this immensity? What is the point? Such waste of space?

Waste in what sense? That our matter and energy and space-time could have been better used elsewhere? Besides, if the universe were smaller or larger it could not have formed the way necessary for us to come into being. The universe is just the right size for us to exist in it. Read up on the anthropic cosmological principle and you’re likely to conclude the universe is the way it is for a reason. Either that or you’ll need to believe in an infinite variety of universes to get to this one.

 

[AlphaOmega]

I to have looked at the cosmos, I am repeatedly facinated by the new discoveries that are being made and the infinite natue of it all… FAB

I didn’t know the cosmos had an** INFINITE **nature? Where does the Catholic Church teach this?

 

[johnco]

hi,

perhaps all that wasted space is going to be used for God’s purposes in the next life. as for life elsewhere, we are quite alone.
God, angels, us, that’s all.

God bless,

johnco

 

[JimG]

When I think about the vastness of the universe, I am struck by what has been called the “anthropic principle.” There are certain constants in the universe–the gravitational constant, the planck length, the speed of light, etc. I’m not enough of a physicist to recite them all. But the thing is that if any of them were different by a hairsbreadth, humanity could not have developed anywhere in the cosmos. It’s almost as if the physical constants were laid down with us in mind. But that’s too much teleogy for science to consider.

 

[Dameedna]

I do not think that an understanding of the immensity of the universe negates God. It does, however negate a lot of what is considered Christian Doctrine(at least for me)

Science is coming to a very interesting place with the very nature of life on this planet. It took an IMMENSE amount of “luck” for life to evolve with current understanding, and even more so, for life to evolve to consiousness.

But luck along with evolution is the mechanism that drove it.

However, since it is so improbably that life could have arrisen out of luck(science does accept this) that it will be virtually impossible for life to exist on other planets, despite the size of the universe.

So the real issue is going to be, what if there is life on other planets? There are not enough stars in the known universe to allow for the probability of life existing anywhere else, given the statistical improbability of life itself.And yet, the conditions of the universe, the fine-tuning of it, seem remarkably suitable to life.

Is this just a fluke? Is it the biggest and greatest Cosmic Joke of all? Can we accept that this is just the way it is? Does God make the explanation of the universe more simple, or much more complicated?

I think we have a looooooooooong way to go, before any real understanding is reached. Quantum physics alone throws a huge spanner in the works, and there may be other forces at work(natural ones) that we have yet to discover or come across.

I think what is more difficult to come to terms with, is the specific doctrine of christianity itself. I’d say just marvel at the universe, and sit with the unknown. It’s not a bad place to be, although it does take a bit of courage.

 

[Dameedna]

What is the point? Such waste of space?

This is one of the primary reasons, why I do not support any particular religion despite the fact that I enjoy many elements of a few of them. At the end of the day however, there is no “point” to any of them.

What is the point behind life in christianity? To be born, serve god, and spend eternity with a reward or punishment?

What is the point of eternity? What are you going to DO for eternity.

I find religion to be ultimately nihlistic. If there is a point, it’s beyond our current understanding.

 

[jimmy]

This is one of the primary reasons, why I do not support any particular religion despite the fact that I enjoy many elements of a few of them. At the end of the day however, there is no “point” to any of them.

What is the point behind life in christianity? To be born, serve god, and spend eternity with a reward or punishment?

What is the point of eternity? What are you going to DO for eternity.

I find religion to be ultimately nihlistic. If there is a point, it’s beyond our current understanding.

There is one point, communion with God. And there is no higher purpose than that. Ironically it is your position which is nihilistic. You take the atheist/agnostic position which says there is no god and if there is then he doesn’t care about us. That is nihilism. Christianity is ordered to love of God and love of neighbor. What is higher than love? Nothing. The universe might as well die if there is no love.

 

[oikumene]

One logic explanation on the mystery of the Universe and the billions of years it took to form especially our planet is that our scientists although they know a lot of the Universe in fact maybe they are getting it wrong with the limited resources we have.

In the Middle Ages we were sure that the planet was flat etc and etc but all of a sudden Copernicus, Galileo and other scientists change the whole way how to perceive the Universe.

So maybe another ‘Galileo’ have to come to tell us, “Hey, the universe is so different the way you are perceiving it, may be with
your limited senses and resources.”

We live with so many mysteries however all these things such as the creation is a wonderful gift, a big present from the Creator. We just have to look in awe and wonder. For this God to become man on our planet 2,000 years ago tells us how important we are and God is telling us that we are not alone, the LOVE is the most powerful ‘energy’ that makes the Universe spin. This is true when you consider that when we do not LOVE our planet, we are reaping the climate change consiquences. We have to respect the creation.

It is not time yet for us to be ready and discover more than we can handle and God seems to respect our limitations in our body and mind.

Sometimes I try not get to entangled into such mysterious but let the Word of God guides me:

My heart is not proud, O LORD,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
like a weaned child with its mother,
like a weaned child is my soul within me.

3 O Israel, put your hope in the LORD
both now and forevermore. Psalm 131

 

[East_and_West]

I am a devout catholic. However these last few months I have been undergoing some great problems emotionally and health wise and thus have tested my faith. As now I have been experiencing great loss of faith in God, my mind is exploring the real existence of God.

In the Cathecism of the Catholic Church I read paragraphs 36 to 38 and the Church instructs that by reason alone we cannot come to know God.

My real problem is that concerns the Catholic faith with the Universe. I, as an amateur astronomer, I come to experience the vast and the immensity of the cosmos which make a small mind like mine spin and can make you insane.

How come that with all these galaxies, billions of stars, trillions of planets, our relative young planetary civilization (7,000 years), the Creator came into our planet to redeem the Universe in such an insignificant globe in a insignificant galaxy? This is a great mystery and how can you take all of this on faith? Why God created this immensity? What is the point? Such waste of space?

Has the Church explored this kind of subject?

The logical fallacy here is to suggest that size determines significance. Remember what Yoda says. “Judge me by my size do you?” LOL. As for waste? What waste? The universe is beautiful. Absolutely amazing. It reflect the beauty of the creator and even it is infinitely below him. I think God created such a vast universe to demonstrate how amazing he is. No need to populate the entire universe with life. If God had never created life at all, the universe would still be amazing.
Furthermore, Its a playground for us, his children. The fact that the universe is so immense and such a mystery to us provides an opportunity for awe and wonder in us. A chance for exploration and adventrure, just like children in a play ground! Besides, how do you know that there is no life out there in the universe? This is simply something we cannot know. God may have created other worlds with life, maybe even rational beings with souls. C.S. Lewis explores this idea his novels Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.

 

[FAB]

I didn’t know the cosmos had an** INFINITE **nature? Where does the Catholic Church teach this?

I never said that the church taught this. The universe as far as we know with our science, is infinite. Besides, if it is not , what does it but against? another universe?

Peace,
FAB

 

[East_and_West]

I never said that the church taught this. The universe as far as we know with our science, is infinite. Besides, if it is not , what does it but against? another universe?

Peace,
FAB

Does science know that it is infinte? I mean, if its expanding that means its growing. But if its growing, then how can it be infinite? Growth means that size is increasing. But size is a characteristic of limited things. Only finite things can have size because only finite things can be measured. It seems to me that the idea that universe is infinite makes no sense.

 

[FAB]

Does science know that it is infinte? I mean, if its expanding that means its growing. But if its growing, then how can it be infinite? Growth means that size is increasing. But size is a characteristic of limited things. Only finite things can have size because only finite things can be measured. It seems to me that the idea that universe is infinite makes no sense.

If the universe is still expanding, what then is it expanding into? This is how reason gets us to faith. We can only reason to far to the size of the universe. When we start to imagine that there is an limit to it’s size, like some big ball, we then have to wonder what is beyond the edges. As I heard one time, perhaps our universe is a spec of dust on a donkey’s rear. The question is then were did that donkey come from and is it in another universe. We can reason so far, then we have to turn to faith. A loving God who’s love is infinite.

Peace,
FAB

 

[wcknight]

It’s kind of a mote point. Whether the universe is infinite or not, is almost irrelavant. It is beyond what most folks can comprehend. When you consider that there are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and each millions of of miles apart. It is pretty darn huge and IF it’s not exactly infinite, it’s pretty darn close to it.

I look at the vastness of the universe and ask how can anyone NOT believe in God, anyone who can create such a marvel with such order, complexity, and beauty has to be incredibly powerful.

Maybe one of our activities in Heaven is to explore the rest of the universe. Maybe there are a zillion planets with life out there, and you can visit each and every one and spend a few hundred years on each. IF this were the only planet in the universe, eternity would get pretty boring after a few hundred lifetimes or so.

Eternity would be awfully boring on just one earth.

 

[a_priori]

If the universe is still expanding, what then is it expanding into? This is how reason gets us to faith. We can only reason to far to the size of the universe. When we start to imagine that there is an limit to it’s size, like some big ball, we then have to wonder what is beyond the edges. As I heard one time, perhaps our universe is a spec of dust on a donkey’s rear. The question is then were did that donkey come from and is it in another universe. We can reason so far, then we have to turn to faith. A loving God who’s love is infinite.

Peace,
FAB

That’s a good point. The universe is not infinite. Space itself is expanding into nothingness, a “nothingness” where space itself does not exist… We have no frame of reference to interpret this. We live inside time and space. We cannot be completely objective about the nature of time and space any more then fish can be objective in their understanding of water.

 

[MindOverMatter]

How come that with all these galaxies, billions of stars, trillions of planets, our relative young planetary civilization (7,000 years), the Creator came into our planet to redeem the Universe in such an insignificant globe in a insignificant galaxy? This is a great mystery and how can you take all of this on faith? Why God created this immensity? What is the point? Such waste of space?

Has the Church explored this kind of subject?

A waste? This ultimately depends on perspective. An artist once put together a mundane wall of bricks and called it art. I’m not sure why, but he was obviously trying to give us a message.

Why would God redeem a group of insignificant creatures from an insignificant solor system within a vast universe? Then-again, what do you mean by significance? If you “love” somebody, it really doesn’t matter how small they are, there can be no such thing as “insignificance”. Thats just something we made up. Size really doesn’t matter if somebody “loves you”. If that is true, then maybe, just maybe, the size of the Universe has some kind of inherent message of its own. Again; it all depends on how you interpret life.

Some people like to reduce humanity to a mere bag of chemicals. In one respect, we are just a bag of chemicals; however, the significance of human beings cannot rise or fall on this truth. This is because the meaning of life is dependent on the ultimate reality of things, what existence amounts to–not the immediate physicality of circumstance. Nobody can tell you that you are just an insignificant bag of cells unless they themselves are the ultimate reality.

I know that chance and random variation are used as buzz words for proof of naturalism; however, although one could make a case that “Quality” can arise by random events, it cannot be equally true that “Quality” in itself, such as “cognition”, is an accident. From the very beginning of time, it has always been true that given the right mixture, you would exist.

Do not confuse “process” with “quality”. Why any Universe should exist, in which objects become “personal” with feelings, desires and beliefs, is something that is up for debate, and there is every reason to think that it is our destiny to exist–we are suppose to be here. There is a **purpose **to it all. Again; it all depends on perspective, your belief. We can be negative creatures, and this can greatly reduce are ability to see the point of anything. This requires faith.

 

[oikumene]

A waste? This ultimately depends on perspective. An artist once put together a mundane wall of bricks and called it art. I’m not sure why, but he was obviously trying to give us a message.

Why would God redeem a group of insignificant creatures from an insignificant solor system within a vast universe? Then-again, what do you mean by significance? If you “love” somebody, it really doesn’t matter how small they are, there can be no such thing as “insignificance”. Thats just something we made up. Size really doesn’t matter if somebody “loves you”. If that is true, then maybe, just maybe, the size of the Universe has some kind of inherent message of its own. Again; it all depends on how you interpret life.

Some people like to reduce humanity to a mere bag of chemicals. In one respect, we are just a bag of chemicals; however, the significance of human beings cannot rise or fall on this truth. This is because the meaning of life is dependent on the ultimate reality of things, what existence amounts to–not the immediate physicality of circumstance. Nobody can tell you that you are just an insignificant bag of cells unless they themselves are the ultimate reality.

I know that chance and random variation are used as buzz words for proof of naturalism; however, although one could make a case that “Quality” can arise by random events, it cannot be equally true that “Quality” in itself, such as “cognition”, is an accident. From the very beginning of time, it has always been true that given the right mixture, you would exist.

Do not confuse “process” with “quality”. Why any Universe should exist, in which objects become “personal” with feelings, desires and beliefs, is something that is up for debate, and there is every reason to think that it is our destiny to exist–we are suppose to be here. There is a **purpose **to it all. Again; it all depends on perspective, your belief. We can be negative creatures, and this can greatly reduce are ability to see the point of anything. This requires faith.

I have to agree with this perspective. It makes a lot of sense. Very profound. As I said, LOVE is the most powerful thing in the Universe because the Universe was made out of LOVE. Lack of LOVE is also destructable and can destroy the Universe as well but ultimately LOVE will conquer because it is more powerful.

 

[buffalo]

Here is another perspective. Man is in the middle of the biggest spaces and the smallest.

 

[joseph_virgen]

some topics scream for Truth. this is one, for no sooner did i finish reading the title of this stream that my mind raced to the proverb:

I am the most ignorant of men;
i do not have a man’s understandng
i have not learned wisdom,
nor have i knowledge of the Holy One.
who has gone up to heaven and come down?
who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
who has established all the ends of the earth?
what is his name, and the name of his son?
tell me if you know.