- Status
B
Barbkw
Guest
- A human parent creates a child. That parent has approximately 25 years of maturity over that of his/her child at any given time. As God said, a human parent doesn’t give their child a stone, when they’ve asked for bread.
- Humans decide their own placement. Bodies die. The spirit that God gives each human, returns back to God.
T
Theophorus
Guest
1 – Why should god have any rights over people who are supposed to have free will, irrespective of whether he created them?
2 – If god assumes those rights to punish people who don’t do what they’re told (as interpreted by [Christianity]), how does that make him morally different from the world’s worst mass-murdering dictators?
What rights does God have over people? In what way does God punish?
The fact that people have free will is contingent on them being created with free will.
Free will means being responsible for our actions as freely chosen by us, we are accountable for our actions. If we are not accountable for our actions we are not free as we assume no responsibility for the consequences of said actions.
The knowledge of good and evil, and the consequences of our actions are within our capacity to understand, and all actions have consequences especially in the light of free will. The choices we make are our choices and they incline us to good or evil (habits and traits developed from actions carried out)
God does not so much punish us rather He responds to the choices we have freely made, in regards to how much(or little) these choices are in conformity with justice, fairness, etc concepts themselves which themselves form the basis for exercising free will. Unless our acts can be just/unjust, fair/unfair etc. unless there can be moral weight to them, unless we can choose the good, we have no free will as we have no choice. Can’t really have it both ways.
Also if God were to say you can do x,y and z it doesn’t matter, I will still do the same thing (even if that is nothing) then our actions would not be free. and God would be patronising us by saying we have free will and not respecting it!
[Obviously we know more from revelation regarding free will, imperfect knowledge, original sin, concupiscence, the fallen nature of man and God’s grace etc. but these points are more theological revelations as understood in Christianity (Catholicism in particular) than philosophical truths derived from experiential knowledge and while they are used to clarify our understanding in this area it sounds like they would not be accepted as valid arguments by those who wrote the silly questions]
2 – If god assumes those rights to punish people who don’t do what they’re told (as interpreted by [Christianity]), how does that make him morally different from the world’s worst mass-murdering dictators?
What rights does God have over people? In what way does God punish?
The fact that people have free will is contingent on them being created with free will.
Free will means being responsible for our actions as freely chosen by us, we are accountable for our actions. If we are not accountable for our actions we are not free as we assume no responsibility for the consequences of said actions.
The knowledge of good and evil, and the consequences of our actions are within our capacity to understand, and all actions have consequences especially in the light of free will. The choices we make are our choices and they incline us to good or evil (habits and traits developed from actions carried out)
God does not so much punish us rather He responds to the choices we have freely made, in regards to how much(or little) these choices are in conformity with justice, fairness, etc concepts themselves which themselves form the basis for exercising free will. Unless our acts can be just/unjust, fair/unfair etc. unless there can be moral weight to them, unless we can choose the good, we have no free will as we have no choice. Can’t really have it both ways.
Also if God were to say you can do x,y and z it doesn’t matter, I will still do the same thing (even if that is nothing) then our actions would not be free. and God would be patronising us by saying we have free will and not respecting it!
[Obviously we know more from revelation regarding free will, imperfect knowledge, original sin, concupiscence, the fallen nature of man and God’s grace etc. but these points are more theological revelations as understood in Christianity (Catholicism in particular) than philosophical truths derived from experiential knowledge and while they are used to clarify our understanding in this area it sounds like they would not be accepted as valid arguments by those who wrote the silly questions]
M
Marchmain1987
Guest
- God does not have “rights” over us as we think of rights (God bless the Enlightenment). All of creation is attuned with God and his divine will. It exists because he created it and allows it to continue. Because humans have free will we can reject this natural state.
- God does not punish people. Simply, he has told us what is good and what is bad. Rejection of that revealed good has consequences for us and the rest of creation. Sin has consequences. That is why God tells us not to do x, y, and z.
- Does that sound unfair? Cruel? Some people think so. But in light of the fact that God truly understands suffering, not just because he is God, because he lived through true suffering through-out his entire life (which culminated in a violent and barbaric death). Even in Heaven, Our Lord’s physical body bears the wounds of human sin.
E
empther
Guest
“Rights” implies the right to something.
What does God get from human beings?
NOTHING ! 
He us wholly sufficient by himself, thank you, and gets nothing from us. He created us only from goodness, to give us a chance to share in his life.
Looked at this way,
we can understand his “right” to command and punish us. It’s like parents. The parents guide the child not because the parents get anything out of it, but because the parents wand the child to remain safe, grow, learn, and be happy and successful.
So it is with God.
What does God get from human beings?
NOTHING ! He us wholly sufficient by himself, thank you, and gets nothing from us. He created us only from goodness, to give us a chance to share in his life.
Looked at this way,
we can understand his “right” to command and punish us. It’s like parents. The parents guide the child not because the parents get anything out of it, but because the parents wand the child to remain safe, grow, learn, and be happy and successful.
So it is with God.
H
Heuchler
Guest
1.Just because we have the right to choose our actions ourselves doesn’t mean we can’t be limited by God.
2. The person who posed this question is probably perfectly fine with the death penalty. Likewise, God is justice, so he can’t let people go without punishment (unless you appeal to his mercy through Christ).
2. The person who posed this question is probably perfectly fine with the death penalty. Likewise, God is justice, so he can’t let people go without punishment (unless you appeal to his mercy through Christ).
S
Shike
Guest
Just two questions (found in the disco thread here) that I found I couldn’t answer outside of the Scriptural framework.
They are silly questions, IMO, but I don’t know how to explain it philosophically.
Any thoughts?
- True freedom is not the lack of all restraints, it is not the ability to damage the nature that you have.
- Justice is on God’s side. And it is more of us reaping the consequences of our actions than God punishing us… though it depends upon how you look at it, philosophically or phenomenologically.
L
LilyM
Guest
God has no more rights over us than the manufacturer of a car has over its owners and drivers…
Certainly the manufacturer knows the specs and design and will warn that, for example, owners and drivers should not put diesel fuel into a petrol car, should service it at particular appropriate times, and not try to drive the car with the handbrake still on.
The driver is not ‘punished’ by the manufacturer for doing any of these things, but nonetheless if they do them they will suffer the consequences and damage if not totally destroy the vehicle.
So God, who designed us, knows what behaviors and attitudes are best for us. And none of it - no even the commands to worship Him - are given for any benefit of His, but ours. He doesn’t get harmed in any way by us not worshipping Him or not respecting His name, but we certainly do.
The comparison of God to a murderer is flawed. He did not create us to die, not even physically - this came about, like all evils, as a result of original sin. So we in effect have killed ourselves.
Certainly the manufacturer knows the specs and design and will warn that, for example, owners and drivers should not put diesel fuel into a petrol car, should service it at particular appropriate times, and not try to drive the car with the handbrake still on.
The driver is not ‘punished’ by the manufacturer for doing any of these things, but nonetheless if they do them they will suffer the consequences and damage if not totally destroy the vehicle.
So God, who designed us, knows what behaviors and attitudes are best for us. And none of it - no even the commands to worship Him - are given for any benefit of His, but ours. He doesn’t get harmed in any way by us not worshipping Him or not respecting His name, but we certainly do.
The comparison of God to a murderer is flawed. He did not create us to die, not even physically - this came about, like all evils, as a result of original sin. So we in effect have killed ourselves.
- Status