Godparent has resigned from Catholic Church

[iloveangels]

What do you mean by that? That is the Church teaching fully backed by Christ.
You make it sound as if its not really true.

I know that Catholics say this. But why should somebody who doesn’t believe what Catholics say anymore care? This is exactly the position many people who leave the church are in. They walk out the door and they’re gone.

Cessation of these kinds of beliefs about the exclusivity of the Catholic church is actually one of the leading reasons why people leave the Church. There are others but this is one of the big ones.

Also in this life they can simply come home by going to Confession.

But that’s the point, once they’re gone, they don’t go to confession anymore. They’re gone.

 

[iloveangels]

Thistle,
There are really 2 things here that are getting confused.

1. You are saying that if a person leaves the Church they automatically go to hell by definition. This is a very traditional point of view that isn’t given much attention in official Church teaching anymore. It’s that “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” thing. It’s also a risk that people are sometimes willing to take if they don’t believe the things that the Church says about herself anymore.
2. As a practical matter, when people walk out the door, they no longer participate, donate, avail themselves of the sacraments or anything that you might consider Catholic. In fact about half the time, they go on to join another denomination and consider themselves as belonging to that denomination in as serious a way as they ever belonged to the Catholic Church. The other half of the time, they consider themselves not practicing anything and are often quite ready to denounce the Church. They’ve left. Make no mistake about that.

People can and do leave the Catholic Church by virtue of their willing to leave the Church. They have it in their power to do that. I’m, of course not making the case that they should; rather, I am making the case that they can and do.

 

[thistle]

Thistle,
There are really 2 things here that are getting confused.

1. You are saying that if a person leaves the Church they automatically go to hell by definition. This is a very traditional point of view that isn’t given much attention in official Church teaching anymore. It’s that “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” thing. It’s also a risk that people are sometimes willing to take if they don’t believe the things that the Church says about herself anymore.
2. As a practical matter, when people walk out the door, they no longer participate, donate, avail themselves of the sacraments or anything that you might consider Catholic. In fact about half the time, they go on to join another denomination and consider themselves as belonging to that denomination in as serious a way as they ever belonged to the Catholic Church. The other half of the time, they consider themselves not practicing anything and are often quite ready to denounce the Church. They’ve left. Make no mistake about that.

People can and do leave the Catholic Church by virtue of their willing to leave the Church. They have it in their power to do that. I’m, of course not making the case that they should; rather, I am making the case that they can and do.

Obviously, regarding your point one you did not read what I said. I did not say anyone who walks away from the Church automatically goes to Hell. That is a lie you are telling. I said anyone who walks away from the Church is in a state of mortal sin and if they die unrepentant they go to Hell. That is totally different from what you just said. Please do not state things I did not say.
Also when you talk about someone “joining another denomination” that implies the Catholic Church is a denomination. It is not. It is the only Church.

Regarding your point 2 it makes no difference. I have already explained that it does not matter if a person turns their back on the Church they still remain a Catholic forever but they are a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. They have until their dying breath to repent.

I don’t know where you have been hiding but no salvation outside the Catholic Church is not something that is not being given much attention. Have you counted the vast number of threads on this. Its a major talking point and its an infallible Church teaching.

 

[thistle]

Actually, Thiste…I think you are incorrect here, as per many, many threads on this site.
I think the way it goes, from my understanding of everything I’ve read here all year as per Catholic belief is: We die, and God then decides what happens.

So you may be a non-Catholic or an atheist or a Catholic in mortal sin…but God will have the last word on the heaven or hell decision once ya get there and NONE of us here know for sure what it will be.

And I’ve heard–as per hundreds of colorful and dramatic bible stories–that God is almighty, works in mysterious ways, does what He wants, and is full of many, many surprises…

I do trust, Thiste, that you will be happy to know if and when an “ex-Catholic” or an atheist or a Buddhist or a Jew, etc, goes to heaven??

First, regarding your other post it is better to be a Catholic in a state of grace.

As to your other points the only Church established by Christ was the Catholic Church and he gave it full authority in matters of faith and morals. That means the Church cannot be in error in matters of faith and morals as they have the backing of Christ behind them.
The Church infallibly teaches that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

I would be happy if everyone is saved but sadly that will not be the case.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Not all Catholics will be saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

 

[Stylites]

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Not all Catholics will be saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Yes, even those who spent their whole lives in a Baptist Church or a Sunni mosque or a Tel Aviv synagogue, or who belonged to no religion whatsoever. Even so, they are indeed known as Catholic in heaven.

 

[thistle]

Yes, even those who spent their whole lives in a Baptist Church or a Sunni mosque or a Tel Aviv synagogue, or who belonged to no religion whatsoever. Even so, they are indeed known as Catholic in heaven.

Everyone who is saved is Catholic but those you mention will not necessarily be saved.

Church teaching:

• Baptsim is necessary for salvation (but does not assure it as you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

The question is then how can you be baptised and Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (a non-Catholic who dies for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explict (e.g. someone going through the RCIA program)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (in other words invincible ignorance which applies to those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel, and his Church but in that ignorance live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You can debate who may or may not be captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four nobody is saved.

 

[thistle]

I think, then, you are saying…that it is better to be a non-Catholic who is not in a state of grace…than be a Catholic who is not in a state of grace?

Re the rest…I think you better check with Vatican 2 bit on “salvation outside the church”. I have a feeling you will be quite surprised when you get to heaven.

You obviously do not know the Church teachings.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church and that teaching has not changed. Vatican 2 certainly did not change that.
I showed you the 4 ways the Church teaches that a person can be baptised and Catholic. Anyone not captured under one of these four cannot be saved.

 

[Phemie]

As that is not permitted did they lie to the priest before being allowed to be baptism sponsors?

You’d be surprised at how many priests never ask the question.

I’ve been involved in baptismal preparation through several pastors and, although we make a point of telling the parents all the requirements for sponsors, including the “living a life consistent with the faith”, not one pastor has ever asked for proof of any of this. One couple I prepared had the aunt and former ‘uncle by marriage’ as godparents. They were divorced and each shacked up with someone else and the godmother showed up with lover in tow.

One pastor never even told parents the Church’s rules for godparents and more than one child baptized during his tenure had no Catholic godparent. That became a nightmare and caused anger and hurt feelings when he left and they returned to have a second child baptized with two more non-Catholics as godparents and were told “I’m sorry, the godparent MUST be Catholic but you may have a baptized ‘Christian Witness’.”

 

[iloveangels]

You obviously do not know the Church teachings.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church and that teaching has not changed. Vatican 2 certainly did not change that.
I showed you the 4 ways the Church teaches that a person can be baptised and Catholic. Anyone not captured under one of these four cannot be saved.

You might want to read a church document called Dominus Iesus: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Note the vatican.va address. This is straight off the Vatican’s website.

 

[iloveangels]

You’d be surprised at how many priests never ask the question.

I’ve been involved in baptismal preparation through several pastors and, although we make a point of telling the parents all the requirements for sponsors, including the “living a life consistent with the faith”, not one pastor has ever asked for proof of any of this. One couple I prepared had the aunt and former ‘uncle by marriage’ as godparents. They were divorced and each shacked up with someone else and the godmother showed up with lover in tow.

One pastor never even told parents the Church’s rules for godparents and more than one child baptized during his tenure had no Catholic godparent. That became a nightmare and caused anger and hurt feelings when he left and they returned to have a second child baptized with two more non-Catholics as godparents and were told “I’m sorry, the godparent MUST be Catholic but you may have a baptized ‘Christian Witness’.”

This doesn’t surprise me at all to hear that this happens in Canada. I’m in the US and it occasionally happens here too, although it’s spotty here. Conditions and practices do vary around the world. Maybe things are done differently in the Philippines and other places around the world.

 

[iloveangels]

The other thing that there’s a lot of confusion about is a very practical thing.

People do walk out the door, as a practical matter, and never return. It does happen.

There are 2 SEPARATE things you can say about this:

1. It probably has consequences after they die because they’ve been baptized which leaves a mark on the soul, as has been pointed out in this thread. I say probably because even though the mark itself is completely objective, whether a person chooses to respond to it is subjective in a very big way.
2. If they choose not to respond, the later consequences (that are being talked about in the definitional sense) don’t have anything to do with the fact that they’re GONE, gone, GONE, in the near term, the practical sense. Never to return. They don’t come to mass, they don’t contribute, they don’t raise their kids as Catholics, they don’t own up to being Catholics, it’s over. They’re gone. This affects the Church in a temporal manner on this earth, even before anybody dies.

The two things have to be treated separately. It’s not enough just to observe they’re risking their souls and insist that they’re still Catholic in EVERY SENSE just because they’ve been baptized as infants, because they’re just not. Not anymore. They didn’t respond. They walked out the door. They decided to do something else with their lives.

You know, there’s an interesting misunderstanding here. It’s the deeply held belief that all you have to do is baptize the baby and they’re good to go, almost as if salvation can happen involuntarily somehow and it’s something you inherit from your family if you can just stick around and tolerate the church long enough, through gritted teeth if that’s what it takes. That’s not how it works.

Salvation requires a response and there are a lot of different ways to respond or fail to respond. Not only that, a person can get a valid baptism in a number of ways, as the document from the Vatican points out. Yes, there is a normative way to do this; no, it doesn’t always happen that way.

Yes, it is possible to fail to respond.

 

[thistle]

You might want to read a church document called Dominus Iesus: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Note the vatican.va address. This is straight off the Vatican’s website.

The Church has NEVER and CANNOT change any doctrine. It is impossible . They can be developed and explained clearer but doctrines cannot change.
Vatican 2 did NOT CHANGE any doctrines of the Church. You are completely wrong.

The Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church remains unchanged and the document you gave the link to does not alter that.

THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. That is the Church teaching. Anyone who denies/rejects this commits heresy.

 

[iloveangels]

The Church has NEVER and CANNOT change any doctrine. It is impossible . They can be developed and explained clearer but doctrines cannot change.
Vatican 2 did NOT CHANGE any doctrines of the Church. You are completely wrong.

The Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church remains unchanged and the document you gave the link to does not alter that.

THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. That is the Church teaching. Anyone who denies/rejects this commits heresy.

Thistle,
Did you read the document at the Vatican website?

 

[thistle]

Thistle,
Did you read the document at the Vatican website?

Yes. The Church teaching is not changed. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So I don’t misunderstand you which of these is your view?

1. The Church does teach there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
2. The Church has never taught there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
3. The Church used to teach that but has changed its teaching.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes. The Church teaching is not changed. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So I don’t misunderstand you which of these is your view?

1. The Church does teach there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
2. The Church has never taught there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
3. The Church used to teach that but has changed its teaching.

In the strictly juridical way that many old-time Catholics think of it, #2.

All salvation ultimately comes through the Church but not everyone who obtains salvation is necessarily a formal member. Yes, there is a normative way of doing this, but no, it’s doesn’t happen by the normative method in every case. The Vatican document I cited explains this very clearly and definitively.

It’s also theoretically quite possible for a person who is a formal member of the Church not to obtain salvation.

It’s quite possible to “walk away” (fail to respond) in a number of ways, both while leaving or staying inside the Church. The most degenerate apostates, in fact, may not always be the ones who physically walked away or the ones who were never in the Church in the first place, IMHO.

 

[thistle]

In the strictly juridical way that many old-time Catholics think of it, #2.

All salvation ultimately comes through the Church but not everyone who obtains salvation is necessarily a formal member. Yes, there is a normative way of doing this, but no, it’s doesn’t happen by the normative method in every case. The Vatican document I cited explains this very clearly and definitively.

**It’s also theoretically quite possible for a person who is a formal member of the Church not to obtain salvation. **

It’s quite possible to “walk away” (fail to respond) in a number of ways, both while leaving or staying inside the Church. The most degenerate apostates, in fact, may not always be the ones who physically walked away or the ones who were never in the Church in the first place, IMHO.

I am referring to your comments above which I have highlighted. Did you not read my previous posts:

"Church teaching:

• Baptsim is necessary for salvation (but does not assure it as you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

The question is then how can you be baptised and Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (a non-Catholic who dies for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explict (e.g. someone going through the RCIA program)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (in other words invincible ignorance which applies to those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel, and his Church but in that ignorance live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You can debate who may or may not be captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four nobody is saved."

Sacramental baptism is the normative way to be a Catholic. The other three are not. All this time you have been arguing with me and you are now admitting you agree with me.

As for your other point I already said this in an earlier post:

“Not all Catholics will be saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic”.

What is it about my earlier posts you previously did not agree with and why do you now agree with them?

 

[iloveangels]

I am referring to your comments above which I have highlighted. Did you not read my previous posts:

"Church teaching:

• Baptsim is necessary for salvation (but does not assure it as you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

The question is then how can you be baptised and Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (a non-Catholic who dies for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explict (e.g. someone going through the RCIA program)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (in other words invincible ignorance which applies to those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel, and his Church but in that ignorance live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You can debate who may or may not be captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four nobody is saved."

Sacramental baptism is the normative way to be a Catholic. The other three are not. All this time you have been arguing with me and you are now admitting you agree with me.

As for your other point I already said this in an earlier post:

“Not all Catholics will be saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic”.

What is it about my earlier posts you previously did not agree with and why do you now agree with them?

I think we’re talking past each other which happens in print media where we can’t see each other.

Everyone in heaven may not be formally Catholic. There may be a huge number of surprises when and if we get there ourselves. God does as he wishes and we cannot force his hand, either way.

At any rate, this has become more of a theological discussion, but the OP asked a very practical question about someone–a godparent–who walked away from the church in the here and now. People do that. A lot of people are doing that. It’s every bit as much a practical problem as a theological issue. Many Catholics are in denial but it’s happening anyway.

Here’s just one practical example of the problem of diminishing numbers I’m talking about: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=697983&highlight=young+couples

The church has “aged” dramatically in just the past several years. The OP’s godparent isn’t the only up who’s up and left.