God's actions during man's Fall

[EviPolevhia]

I’m new to these forums and I’ve got alot of questions. But recently I’ve been wondering something specific. I am sorry if this is the wrong subforum for my question. If I need to move this thread or if a moderator has to move it for my my apologies in advance.

Was it within the power of God to, once he found Adam and Eve naked in the Garden, to say “My Children you have strayed from My Grace and Guidance. But by My infinite Mercy you are sheltered.” and then with the barest portion of a thought, wipe the influence of Satan from their minds and souls, wipe the influence of the Tree from the minds and souls?

I know such questions are not simply answered. I wish it would be, but I know they can’t always be.

 

[pablope]

I’m new to these forums and I’ve got alot of questions. But recently I’ve been wondering something specific. I am sorry if this is the wrong subforum for my question. If I need to move this thread or if a moderator has to move it for my my apologies in advance.

Welcome to Catholic.com and the forums…this is a great resource for you to learn about Catholic teaching and the Catholic Church.

Was it within the power of God to, once he found Adam and Eve naked in the Garden, to say “My Children you have strayed from My Grace and Guidance. But by My infinite Mercy you are sheltered.” and then with the barest portion of a thought, wipe the influence of Satan from their minds and souls, wipe the influence of the Tree from the minds and souls?

 

[Gorgias]

Was it within the power of God to, once he found Adam and Eve naked in the Garden, to say “My Children you have strayed from My Grace and Guidance. But by My infinite Mercy you are sheltered.” and then with the barest portion of a thought, wipe the influence of Satan from their minds and souls, wipe the influence of the Tree from the minds and souls?

Hi, Eva!

Here’s my question to you: let’s suppose that God answered in the way that you propose He might have. Then, at some later time, Adam and/or Eve would have sinned in some other way, right? So, what should God have said at that other time? In other words, would there ever have been a sin, such that God’s response would (should?) have been, “OK… what’s up with that? I’ve given you everything, and yet, you decided to disobey me. So, there’s gonna be proportionate consequences…” ???

If you answer “no”, you’ll need to explain how we could say that we have ‘free will’ if there weren’t ever going to be consequences to our actions. That is, if it wasn’t ever going to matter what choices we make, and what actions we take based on those choices, then can we say that there’s such a thing as ‘free will’? After all, if I do X and Y happens, or Z and Y happens, or W and Y happens… then there seems to be no distinction between X and Z and W, with respect to our ‘choice’!

If you answer ‘yes’, though, then your question simply becomes a matter of asking “when?”, given that “if?” has already been answered! That is, since we already know that humans will disobey God and the consequences will follow, then your question just comes down to curiosity over when this will happen – in other words, which sin will trigger God’s inevitable justice?

I think you’re asking how it’s possible that God ever would hold us responsible: yet, it seems that it’s necessary that God does!

 

[EviPolevhia]

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me —she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Adam even blames God for giving him the woman instead of owning or confessing of his disobedience. Likewise with the Woman, she blames the serpent, instead of owning up or confessing of her disobedience.

I think maybe, if Adam and Eve had owned up to their disobedience…things may have turned out differently. Man caused God’s wrath. “

You say they try to pass off the blame but all I see is them explaining, but yet still owning up to their mistakes. Adam said “she gave me some fruit from the tree” an explination of his actions, “and I ate it” a confession. Eve said “The serpent decieved me” an explination of her actions, “and I ate” a confession.

If you answer “no”, you’ll need to explain how we could say that we have ‘free will’ if there weren’t ever going to be consequences to our actions. That is, if it wasn’t ever going to matter what choices we make, and what actions we take based on those choices, then can we say that there’s such a thing as ‘free will’? After all, if I do X and Y happens, or Z and Y happens, or W and Y happens… then there seems to be no distinction between X and Z and W, with respect to our ‘choice’!

I’m not sure I agree with this. First off if you do X or Z or W and no matter what Y happened there is a difference. The actions you chose to do and the actions you did were different in each case.

If I am not smart enough to pass a test I can take the test and fail, or refuse to do the test (there by failing by default). In both cases I have the free will to choose different things. The outcome does not affect the difference in actions chosen. I mean your reasoning could I not also say that life on Earth does not have free will because no matter what you do it all ends in death? (Specifying on Earth specifically here) Free Will is in the choices, not the outcome. Every action we choose has effects that cause reverberations for decades after we die(how we raised our children for example). If the outcome, and not the choice, was the deciding factor then it would be impossible to tell if we had free will because we would never be able to see all of the effects our choices cause throughout the years far beyond our deaths.

 

[Gorgias]

I mean your reasoning could I not also say that life on Earth does not have free will because no matter what you do it all ends in death?

LOL…!

Free Will is in the choices, not the outcome.

That’s true. However, from your question, I thought you were getting at the notion of why it was ever necessary for God to say, “OK, enough! There are consequences to actions, and you’re about to find that out for the first time!” In other words, it seemed that you were getting at the question of why there’s death – that is, consequences for sin – at all!

Yet, free will is all about morality. If my choice is to help a little old lady across the street or ignore her or trip her or beat her up and take her purse, and all of these choices carry the same moral value (i.e., there’s nothing ‘better’ or ‘worse’, morally, or in the outcome of that moral decision), then it’s hard to see where free will comes into the picture. Yes, there are distinct choices, but there’s no moral content to the choices. Free choice would certainly exist, but it would be devoid of value.

That’s all I was trying to get at. Maybe I was missing the point of your initial question?

 

[fhansen]

I’m new to these forums and I’ve got alot of questions. But recently I’ve been wondering something specific. I am sorry if this is the wrong subforum for my question. If I need to move this thread or if a moderator has to move it for my my apologies in advance.

Was it within the power of God to, once he found Adam and Eve naked in the Garden, to say “My Children you have strayed from My Grace and Guidance. But by My infinite Mercy you are sheltered.” and then with the barest portion of a thought, wipe the influence of Satan from their minds and souls, wipe the influence of the Tree from the minds and souls?

I know such questions are not simply answered. I wish it would be, but I know they can’t always be.

Adam & Eve could’ve freely repented but they weren’t repentant-perhaps they didn’t yet know enough to be repentant. In order to turn fully to God, with the degree of freedom He wished them to turn to Him with, in love and in acknowledgment of His goodness, wisdom, trustworthiness, love, and their need for Him, IOWs, so long as they were still “arguing with Reality”-unconvinced that getting their own way/pursuing their own agenda wasn’t more beneficial to them than obedience, then they didn’t yet possess the knowledge they needed.

*That’s *how radical a freedom God gave us-to be able to oppose His very will-and until we use that freedom wisely to choose to obey His will, then justice and harmony are lost in this universe and within ourselves. The choice for us is really no different than Adam’s choice, BTW. Jesus’ Atonement reconciles man with God; we now have the same option as Adam & Eve- and yet we don’t stop sinning immediately just because we’re Christians. And do we really want God to take that freedom? Do we want God to make all the decisions for us? The natural consequence of disobedience of God, the consequence of sin, is simply to alienate ourselves –or remain alienated-from the source of our life, happiness, well-being. And we still have the choice. Our freedom is a terrible, beautiful freedom.

I think the Catechism looks at the Fall of man from a larger perspective:

**412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
**

 

[pablope]

You say they try to pass off the blame but all I see is them explaining, but yet still owning up to their mistakes. Adam said “she gave me some fruit from the tree” an explination of his actions, “and I ate it” a confession. Eve said “The serpent decieved me” an explination of her actions, “and I ate” a confession.

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Evi…yes, Adam and Eve did not take the blame…they rationalized their actions…means they were not repentant…they did not own up to their actions.

What Adam said is, I disobeyed because of … “The woman you put here with me —she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

Adam basically blamed God, not himself.

Same with the woman…she said…I disobeyed because…"“The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Same with the woman…she blamed the serpent…not her own action that she decided to disobey.

Both Adam and Eve had the choice to obey…but they chose otherwise…and did not own up to their transgression.

God does not ask us to explain our actions…that is rationalizing.