God's Infinity is it really infinite

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For years I have struggled with this question and every time I think I have the solution I hear something from another theologen or someone on this forum that throws a wrench in what I think and I am back at square one.

My Question is Aquinas proves God is Actually infinite and I in my small mind believe something that is infinite must be inexhaustibe and endless. There is no way we could ever get to the end of it even if we had an infinite amount of time to learn something new about it for all eternity.

Having said that I relate something endless and inexhautible to something like that natural numbers that go on forever. I could count 1, 2, 3 … and never come to an end of my counting.

But then people will tell me that Aquinas just means that God’s infinity just means that he is unlimited and that he has all power and knowledge but if all knowledge and power are finite then God knows all of it making him unlimited in Knowledge and Power but he does not have an infinite amount of Power or Knowledge so we could in theory come to an end in our Knowing God.

That does not seem to be the God Aquinas is talking about nor does it really seem like a God worthy of worship if I am being honest.

So could someone help me understand how God could not be a mathematical infinite and still be inexhautible (endless) in knowledge and Power etc.
 
ttabor33 said:
For years I have struggled with this question and every time I think I have the solution I hear something from another theologen or someone on this forum that throws a wrench in what I think and I am back at square one.

My Question is Aquinas proves God is Actually infinite and I in my small mind believe something that is infinite must be inexhaustibe and endless. There is no way we could ever get to the end of it even if we had an infinite amount of time to learn something new about it for all eternity.

Having said that I relate something endless and inexhautible to something like that natural numbers that go on forever. I could count 1, 2, 3 … and never come to an end of my counting.

But then people will tell me that Aquinas just means that God’s infinity just means that he is unlimited and that he has all power and knowledge but if all knowledge and power are finite then God knows all of it making him unlimited in Knowledge and Power but he does not have an infinite amount of Power or Knowledge so we could in theory come to an end in our Knowing God.

That does not seem to be the God Aquinas is talking about nor does it really seem like a God worthy of worship if I am being honest.

So could someone help me understand how God could not be a mathematical infinite and still be inexhautible (endless) in knowledge and Power etc.
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Here’s your problem. You’re considering knowledge and power as things God possesses, rather than things God IS. God does not have Knowledge; he IS Knowledge. He does not HAVE power, he IS Power. In God, there is no distinction between his attributes and his essence.

So your error is presuming that knowledge and power are finite, when in fact, they are not. It is we mortals who have a limit to how much knowledge we can acquire and how much power we can wield. God’s knowledge and power extend well beyond the limits of creation. An example of such knowledge is theorized by the Molinists, what they call God’s “middle” knowledge. That knowledge is of things outside of the created order, and yet, he knows.
 
That is the thing. I have always believed God Is his Power and Knowledge and that According to Aquinas he is pure actuality so he has no potential so he is not limited by anything but then you have philosophers like Christian Tapp who say that just means he is not limited so unless you presuppose a Neo- platonic reality then God might only know what is actual and that might now be an infinite amount. Or Like william Lan Craig who says that an actually infinte does not exist so we cannot think of God as having an infinite amount of knowledge. Or many others in these forums that say God is not an mathematical infinite. So it because very confusing on what unlimited in regards to God means.
 
ttabor33 said:
Having said that I relate something endless and inexhautible to something like that natural numbers that go on forever. I could count 1, 2, 3 … and never come to an end of my counting.
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Math does not completely describe how the universe works, even at the most theoretical levels, and I kind of doubt it ever will. So, I would think it safe to say that using numbers to completely describe something infinite, in every way, foolhardy.
 
I think most Theoretical researchers would disagree with you and that is another topic nor the point I am trying to make. Mathematical infinity is a good way to describe something that never ends. That is my point of using the mathematical infinite.
 
Ok another way would be that unlimited means perfection. So if whiteness does not exist in anything else then it would have all the perfection of whiteness. So you could say it is infinite whiteness. That does not make it an infinite amount so to me that still seems not endless.
 
God is outside of time and math, in the way you seem to be describing. He is not infinite in the sense of endlessly counting in numbers to infinity and I don’t think that’s a helpful way to think of it. However, if you thought of the number line, going from zero to infinity, as a line, then He is outside of the line, looking at it and perceiving it in its entirety. Maybe that helps a little? He is perfect and entire and rests outside of time. Infinity isn’t an endless place of time…it’s a place of perfect rest outside of time. And we definitely can’t comprehend it while we are still inside of time.
 
This all went way over my head and I have no idea what any of you are talking about, but if your question is based upon the supposition that knowledge and power is of limited quantity, I think maybe I can help.

Using your example of numbers going on to infinity, wouldn’t the knowledge of all those numbers be an example of infinite knowledge? And God, who made an infinite amount of numbers exist in the fabric of the universe, hasn’t He thereby exerted an infinite amount of power for this purpose alone?

Again I have no idea
 
ttabor33 said:
Ok another way would be that unlimited means perfection. So if whiteness does not exist in anything else then it would have all the perfection of whiteness. So you could say it is infinite whiteness. That does not make it an infinite amount so to me that still seems not endless.
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Your thought patterns are clearly based on analogies, which is why you’re having problems. You’re thinking in terms of sequences, and spans, and colours, and space, none of which applies to God. There are no sequences in God because he is simple. He is not infinite in the sense of spans because as Spirit, he occupies no space. God is not endless in that he does not end because he does not move; in God, there is no time, so his infinity and eternal nature in not based on being never-ending, but rather, that just exists in an eternal Now.

Once you start thinking in analogous terms, such as counting and colours, you’re bound to fall into heresy. That’s why using analogies to teach things like the Trinity is a bad idea; it leads to some heresy. You have to approach God on his own terms, and he has done a good job of granting this understanding to the Church: God is Almighty, God is immutable, God is eternal, God is simple, etc., and within these teachings we formulate a proper understanding of God.
 
That is not what aquinas says. an example. Our intellect reachs out to infinity. An example would be given any quanity we can always think of something greater. So if there was not something infinite then our thought about the infinite would be in vain. so there must be something infinite and this we call God.
 
ttabor33 said:
That is not what aquinas says. an example. Our intellect reachs out to infinity. An example would be given any quanity we can always think of something greater. So if there was not something infinite then our thought about the infinite would be in vain. so there must be something infinite and this we call God.
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Not sure what your point is. How this contradicts something I said, I don’t know.

Yes, this is one of his proofs of God, but even then. All he’s saying is that we are able to conceive infinity, and we’re already doing that, just by discussing it. That’s an example of our minds reaching out to infinity.

If you think however, that Aquinas means this the same as counting 1,2,3,4… etc. or an endless expanse of white, then that’s where you’re wrong. Counting endlessly to 1,2,3,4… to infinity is not really infinite because you had to start (at 1). This alone already excludes your counting from the concept of the infinite. God is not an amount, and he is not a sequence.

And I’m not even sure what you’re getting at with your whiteness analogy.
 
Counting endlessly 1,2,3,4 … would be an example of a potential infinite where God is an Actual infinite. I guess my point is I am not saying God is a mathematical infinite but that you can no more discover or come to the end of God’s being any more then you can come to the end of the number series. Can we agree on that?
 
So when Aquinas says that God is Infinite does one of the properties of Infinite mean that it is inexhaustible?
 
And I am not trying to debate I am truely trying to understand all of this and that is why I am asking these questions.
 
Let me try to articulate my understanding and see if I am right.

According to Aquinas all reality is either pure actuality or a mixture of act and potency. The only thing that can limit Actuality is potency. So if something is Pure Actuality then it has no limits. If something has no limits then it is infinite. If something is infinite then it is endless and inexhaustable.

Given that God is his Power and Knowledge and does not get it anywhere but from himself His knowledge and Power are infinite.

God does not have his Knowledge and Power in a infinte number of parts but all at once.

So taking God’s knowledge as an example. We are limited in our knowledge and there is an end and limit to what we know at any given time along with the fact that any Rational being including the angels are limited and have an end to their knowledge. We can concieve of an infinite number of finite beings all knowing different amounts of knowledge and all of these infinite number of finite beings taken together as a whole would still know less then what God knows.

Same goes with his Being, power etc.

He truely is infinite and we are finite. We participte in a finite way in what he is infinitly. So however you want to look at it. we could spend an eternity learning something new about God. believe I am correct in my understanding of Aquinas and it amazes me but I want to make sure I am correct? Please anyone that has studied Aquinas I would love to hear more or if I am wrong is what I am thinging.
 
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