God's mercy and original Sin

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Original Sin and Ancestral sin are not the actual sin of Adam and Eve but the state of being thus cause and effect. Its a degree of grace withdrawn for lack of a better term. The change which occurred from the Garden through [Genesis 3-15 I think] shows this difference in grace.

What we inherited is this condition being an inclination to sin. This condition is a contingent to the free-will of Eve and Adam. We didn’t inherit their sin but their state of being or the “it” which they introduced to mankind.

Communion with God[heaven] was severed and restored by Christ on the Cross. Baptism removes this stain, but not the human nature with the inclination to sin. The path to communion[heaven] now becomes a consistent yes through free will. And a continued issue for man being in communion with God.
 
Regarding Scriptural support for Catholic doctrines on Original Sin.

One needs to check the footnotes in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition for the Scriptural and Church Fathers’ support.

For example. The Catechism’s section on “Original Sin – an essential truth of the faith” refers to Romans 5:12-21; John 16:8; and 1 Corinthians 2:16. Naturally, the first three chapters of Genesis are relied on for Divine Revelation.

In addition, the major ecumenical Church Councils are referenced because their declared truths are under the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit. (Source: Chapter 14, Gospel of John)

CCC 406 highlights the teaching of St. Augustine. Please note that CCC 406 is in smaller print. The use of small print indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations. (Source: CCC 20-21)

In addition, the list of Ecclesiastical Writers in the Catechism’s “Index of Citations” is full of Church Fathers, Doctors, and more recent Saints.

Last but not least. The Glossary and the cross references in the margins offer further information and explanations.

Note: the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is not a page turner.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
Original Sin and Ancestral sin are not the actual sin of Adam and Eve but the state of being thus cause and effect. Its a degree of grace withdrawn for lack of a better term. The change which occurred from the Garden through [Genesis 3-15 I think] shows this difference in grace.

What we inherited is this condition being an inclination to sin. This condition is a contingent to the free-will of Eve and Adam. We didn’t inherit their sin but their state of being or the “it” which they introduced to mankind.

Communion with God[heaven] was severed and restored by Christ on the Cross. Baptism removes this stain, but not the human nature with the inclination to sin. The path to communion[heaven] now becomes a consistent yes through free will. And a continued issue for man being in communion with God.
I can understand that baptism does not remove the inclination to sin, or the disorder of the appetites toward sin. The removal of graces caused by the original sin of Adam and Eve I can also understand.

Calling the removal of original graces as ‘contracted sin’ for which baptism removes, or the removal of this ‘stain’ for which baptism removes seems to be is a misnomer.

Why not call baptism the restoration of grace through the impartation of the Holy Spirit, and also the forgiveness of sins for those of age? (Originally, baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, followed by the anointing of oil and laying of hands for the impartation of the Holy Spirit.)

God’s peace be with you

micah
 
May I gently remind posters that the word “contracted” refers to the *transmission *of the resultant state of Original Sin to us, which does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. (Source: CCC 402-406)

Yes, the actual action of Original Sin did remove Adam’s state of sanctifying grace. Adam’s descendants, since they were not alive at the time, did not take part in Adam’s deliberate real action, the one and only Original Sin. Still, because Adam’s descendants would be the result of propagation, our human nature would automatically contract the *result or the state *of that Original Sin.

Two of the dictionary definitions for contract as a verb are “to incur” and “to become affected with” (Source:* Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition)* Thus, the transmission of Original Sin refers to our incurring the state of being deprived of Adam’s original holiness which was his sharing in God’s life. For another way of looking at this, please read Romans 5: 12-21.

We need to realize that the term “original sin” can refer to the direct action of Adam or in today’s language it can be the name of human nature’s “state” before Baptism. Thus, it is very important to read the context when the term “original sin” is used. When using the Catechism, one usually has to read more than one paragraph.

What the Catholic Church teaches is this: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/404.htm
This link needs to be read in the context of CCC 402-406.
 
Original Sin and Ancestral sin are not the actual sin of Adam and Eve but the state of being thus cause and effect. Its a degree of grace withdrawn for lack of a better term. The change which occurred from the Garden through [Genesis 3-15 I think] shows this difference in grace.

What we inherited is this condition being an inclination to sin. This condition is a contingent to the free-will of Eve and Adam. We didn’t inherit their sin but their state of being or the “it” which they introduced to mankind.

Communion with God[heaven] was severed and restored by Christ on the Cross. Baptism removes this stain, but not the human nature with the inclination to sin. The path to communion[heaven] now becomes a consistent yes through free will. And a continued issue for man being in communion with God.
Yes from Orthodox theology, none of us are born with Ancestral Sin. In Roman Catholic theololgy, everyone is born with Original Sin. So there is something amiss there.
 
Yes from Orthodox theology, none of us are born with Ancestral Sin. In Roman Catholic theololgy, everyone is born with Original Sin. So there is something amiss there.
Knowing that words have different connotations –
When I read Ancestral Sin, I think of individual ancestors committing personal sins. However, even though Adam, himself, committed a personal sin of pride and disobedience, that sin itself affected all human nature which would include us. Roman Catholic theology does not teach that everyone is born with Adam’s personal Original Sin as if they had committed it. Rather each person contracts or incurs or becomes affected with the state of human nature due to Adam shattering humankind’s relationship with our Creator.

Catholicism teaches a difference between one’s personal sin and the sin of Adam known individually as Original Sin. Again, Original Sin can refer to the direct action of Adam or in modern language, original sin can be the name of human nature’s state of existence at conception. This is why one can say that Baptism removes original sin even though it is not a personal fault of the person.
 
Regarding Scriptural support for Catholic doctrines on Original Sin.

One needs to check the footnotes in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition for the Scriptural and Church Fathers’ support.

For example. The Catechism’s section on “Original Sin – an essential truth of the faith” refers to Romans 5:12-21; John 16:8; and 1 Corinthians 2:16. Naturally, the first three chapters of Genesis are relied on for Divine Revelation.

In addition, the major ecumenical Church Councils are referenced because their declared truths are under the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit. (Source: Chapter 14, Gospel of John)

CCC 406 highlights the teaching of St. Augustine. Please note that CCC 406 is in smaller print. The use of small print indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations. (Source: CCC 20-21)

In addition, the list of Ecclesiastical Writers in the Catechism’s “Index of Citations” is full of Church Fathers, Doctors, and more recent Saints.

Last but not least. The Glossary and the cross references in the margins offer further information and explanations.

Note: the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is not a page turner.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
Granny, you gave these scriptures as pertaining to original sin as referenced by the Catechism.

Romans 5:12-19, Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned.

*This reaffirms what St. James has said. Each of us individually, through our individual choosing to sin bring forth death to our own soul. The death of our individual soul did not come through Adam’s choice of sin, it came through our own choice to sin. Even as Ezekiel says, 'the soul that sins, it shall die".

How did sin enter into the world through one man, Adam? As I understand it, through the **inclination **toward evil, the disordered appetites of the flesh that lead each of us to sin, sin which brings forth in each us death to our individual soul.

It was not the ‘transmitted’ sin of Adam that brought sin into the world, rather it was the fallen state of our physical human nature and its disordered appetites that war against our soul. Even as St. Peter says, 'abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul/I]

John 16:8: "When he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation"

I do not see how the ‘contracted sin’ of Adam, or the ‘transmitted’ sin of Adam is suggested here.

I Corinth.2:16: “For who has the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ"

Once again, I do not see how the proposed ‘transmitted’ sin of Adam is suggested here either.

St. Augustine is post-Nicene, not ante-Nicene. It seems to me that there are certain presumptions of post-Nicene that have influenced the doctrine of ‘original sin’.


Finally, what was deprived of the human race was Paradise. Paradise is unlike this fallen world which is a daily source of temptation to each of us.

Paradise in which Adam and Eve did not suffer from the consequences of a fallen human nature with its disordered appetites of the flesh. These temptations of the flesh are another daily source of temptation to each of us.

Into this Paradise entered the devil to tempt Adam and Eve, they were deprived of the innocence of their souls when they fell into the devil’s temptation and disobeyed God.

So, it seems to me that justice and holiness would have been attributed to Adam and Eve if they had overcome the temptation of the devil, but they did not. What they lost was the innoncence of their own soul.

Each of us is given an innocent soul by God within the formation and protection of our mother’s womb. From thence, we are born with a fallen flesh nature, into a fallen world, amongst fallen angels. The world, the flesh and the devil lead us into temptation which leads each of us to sin, which if unchecked, and unrepented brings forth death.

Our blessed Savior, the Son of God came into this world, born of the Virgin Mary ‘to save us from our sins’. Jesus Christ accomplished this salvation for each of us by perfectly overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil. In so doing he offered up his innocent soul as a sacrifice for our sins in his body on the tree. We are being justified by the faith of his crucifixion and resurrection from the dead. In the waters of baptism and the impartation of the Holy Spirit we receive the forgiveness of sins and the promise of bodily resurrrection and eternal life

This is how I understand my Christian/Catholic faith as so beautifully and simply defined by the Apostles Creed.

God’s blessings to you, too and I thank God for your
patience and kindness

micah*
 
Granny, you gave these scriptures as pertaining to original sin as referenced by the Catechism.
There is no problem with these Scriptures when the full meaning is understood…and especially when individual verses are placed within their proper context.

When one accepts the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church, there is the realization that the Church will continue to probe the depth of Divine Revelation. Please refer to Chapter 14, Gospel of John in which Jesus Christ gives the details of the promised Advocate. This process of searching for the full meaning of revelation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit has happened especially when certain truths, such as the basic relationship of Adam to his Creator, was challenged in the early centuries and again in recent history. The timeless encyclical Humani Generis, Pius XII, 1950, restates Catholic teaching with no changes.

With its universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Catholicism has once again stated the seriousness of Original Sin. Based on the teaching of
St. Paul, 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, CCC bluntly says: “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, (1 Corinthians 2:16) knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.”

Again, in order to understand the Catholic teachings on Original Sin, one must start with a complete description of who Adam is and what was his original relationship with his Creator.
 
Knowing that words have different connotations –
When I read Ancestral Sin, I think of individual ancestors committing personal sins. However, even though Adam, himself, committed a personal sin of pride and disobedience, that sin itself affected all human nature which would include us. Roman Catholic theology does not teach that everyone is born with Adam’s personal Original Sin as if they had committed it. Rather each person contracts or incurs or becomes affected with the state of human nature due to Adam shattering humankind’s relationship with our Creator.

Catholicism teaches a difference between one’s personal sin and the sin of Adam known individually as Original Sin. Again, Original Sin can refer to the direct action of Adam or in modern language, original sin can be the name of human nature’s state of existence at conception. This is why one can say that Baptism removes original sin even though it is not a personal fault of the person.
Orthodox theology does not teach that we are born with any type of sin, personal guilt or not. We are born into a world that has been subjected to sin and death as a result of Adam’s sin. Christ has redeemed us and has overcome sin and death, but our nature remains the same until we ourselves pass from this life and are renewed in the resurrection. We are still not totally free from sin until we achieve theosis where we will be perfected by our communion with God.
 
One must commit a mortal sin for the sinner to be in eternal mortal danger.

It is not a debate where my miscarried kid is, he is in heaven.

Think of it like this - as a human, you were given (gift from God) the ability to reason, use logic, therefore it is a good to think. Sure you can use that gift to think evil, but it doesn’t take away from the fact it is a gift of good from something that is all good.

Can we not conclude that God has even a more logical way of thought than our own?

For people to say, the Church can’t or doesn’t teach this or that, it’s because it’s not necessary with the gift to every person to use reason (common sense).

I don’t see a debate at all with a logical, loving God.

If God was a mean tyrant, we would have seen that in God made man and maybe conclude differently. However, if God was mean, he wouldn’t have made us with the ability to think since why would he want us to think he is mean.
 
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