God's providence, determinism or chance?

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A bolt of lightening hits a person and kills them. Is this a chance occurrance linked to God only in that He created everything, even weather and its seemingly chaotic processes? Or, is it a specifically designed “suffering or cross” meant for that person or for their family and friends to deal with and grow closer to God?

If you feel the latter, then is it the Holy Spirit who puts these ‘crosses’ in our path, and how do you know what is a God-inspired cross versus simply a poor choice on your own part (stepping out into traffic)?

Anyone have examples of suffering or crosses which you have clearly discerned as put their by God for your journey to Him? How do you discern them?

Thanks,
HW
 
At some point in recent years Job answered this question for me:

Job 1:21

And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. **The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” **

This verse looks simple, but I think it is one of the most theologically packed verses in all of scripture.

Mel
 
easy… first of all, God doesn’t think as we think… so we will never be able to answer it all… secondly, we accept a lot on faith, heck, we have to accept our church, it’s founder, it’s followers, and all they preached about on faith, and we don’t come close to answers for any or very little of all that… now, for my example of of the crosses we are given… i have 4 children… God made them all and gave them to me to protect, nuture, raise, teach, and send them out into a holstile world and to pass on the faith we profess to their children… he ask us to love him, serve him so as to be happy with him in the life after this world… and we have a free will to walk away from it all… Remember, we do not own ourselves, God owns us and wills us all to be saved, but he loves us enough to make the decision ourselves… yeah, i have crosses, and i believe there is a larger plan out there that we don’t have all the answers to, and i don’t think we are meant to have all the answers.
And, that’s O K! 👍
 
space ghost:
… and we have a free will to walk away from it all…
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Thanks for the reply.

Do you think there are negative consequences when you choose to walk away from your crosses? Could these be considered punishments?

What about positive ones when you choose to accept your cross and carry it willingly? Are there worldly rewards in these cases?

HW
 
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Melchior:
Job 1:21

And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. **The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” **

This verse looks simple, but I think it is one of the most theologically packed verses in all of scripture.

Mel
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply.

I’m pretty slow and not very attuned to ‘seeing’ the meaning behind many bible versus, although I’d like to. Can you shed some more light on how this verse addresses the question?
If God does all the giving and all the taking away, why have free will at all?
HW
 
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hwinston:
A bolt of lightening hits a person and kills them. Is this a chance occurrance linked to God only in that He created everything, even weather and its seemingly chaotic processes? Or, is it a specifically designed “suffering or cross” meant for that person or for their family and friends to deal with and grow closer to God?

If you feel the latter, then is it the Holy Spirit who puts these ‘crosses’ in our path, and how do you know what is a God-inspired cross versus simply a poor choice on your own part (stepping out into traffic)?

Anyone have examples of suffering or crosses which you have clearly discerned as put their by God for your journey to Him? How do you discern them?

Thanks,
HW
Click to expand...
I believe that God could have known the lightening was going strike at that moment. It is possible that God could have made the lightening strike.

However, this determinism would be outside of our perception. It is something we could not possibly know, prove or demonstrate.

Hence, the determinism of this event would be of no consequence. The appearance to us is that of randomness. Whether or not it is is of no matter.

I believe that a belief in determinism hints at the ability to stop an event, if it is pre-known or pre-determined by God. The event can’t be stopped if it is random, and can’t be stopped if it is what God wills. So, either way it is going to happen.
 
A tree praises God by being a tree. A squirrel praises God by being a squirrel. All nature lives in the glory of God simply by being. Only humans have the gift of free will by choosing to serve him by being who we are created to be, or choosing to be less then human.

Thus the lightning bolt praised God by striking the man, because that’s just what lightning bolts do. It wasn’t necessarily sent specifically by God to strike the person at that moment.(although there is the possibility in rare circumstances, but I don’t think supernatural miracles are what you’re referring to.) But rather, the lightning bolt was specifically created by God, and a lightning bolt in its nature struck the person. Its all part of how nature glorifys God in its being.

All things in nature work for good, because they are created in the glory of God. The human, once struck, can choose to serve God, which is acting in accordance with nature, which causes him to grow and become a better person, becaus he is living the life God allowed for him.

He also has the option of rejecting God, his role of service to him, at which point being struck by lightning has no further meaning, other then now he’s not as healthy as he once was.

Josh
 
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hwinston:
Thanks for the reply.

I’m pretty slow and not very attuned to ‘seeing’ the meaning behind many bible versus, although I’d like to. Can you shed some more light on how this verse addresses the question?
If God does all the giving and all the taking away, why have free will at all?
HW
Click to expand...
Do we have free-will? Yes and no. Our free-will is limited. God determines when we are born and when we will die. He also uses secondary means to bring about His will in our lives. We do have free will but it is a mystery to some extent. Because ultimately we pray that God’s will be done. Since He is sovereign over all things and not us, we must live with the paradox that someow he allows us a degree of freedom, yet, He even uses our choices as means to His ends.

In other words when life happens you can take great comfort, lke Job, in all things good and bad. Since the God who loves you is in control of all things - right down to the minutia of our boring little lives. How He does this without “violating” our wills is a mystery. But keep in mind He can and does things that effect your will. For example we love Him. Why? Because we freely choose too? No. Because He first loved us. Our will is involved but not apart from His influence. He is God and He created the system. The rest is a mystery.

Mel
 
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GoodME:
I believe that God could have known the lightening was going strike at that moment. It is possible that God could have made the lightening strike.

However, this determinism would be outside of our perception. It is something we could not possibly know, prove or demonstrate.

Hence, the determinism of this event would be of no consequence. The appearance to us is that of randomness. Whether or not it is is of no matter.

I believe that a belief in determinism hints at the ability to stop an event, if it is pre-known or pre-determined by God. The event can’t be stopped if it is random, and can’t be stopped if it is what God wills. So, either way it is going to happen.
Click to expand...
Good answer! 👍

Mel
 
  1. Jesus said that he knows whenever a bird falls from the sky.
  2. Jesus said the man born blind was to show the glory of God.
  3. Jesus said the 18 people killed by the falling tower were no different than anybody else.
  4. The Book of Job says that God makes the dew every morning and that God made the ostrich stupid on purpose.
  5. The Bible says that the universe is continued in existance by the word of God.
  6. God chastises those that he loves.
  7. God is outside of time. I can pray that we will win WW2 and those prayers will be just as effective as if I prayed it in 1940.
  8. God has determined that all things work to the good for those who love him.
I think #7 and #8 are the answers to your question. It does not matter what you or I think. Essentially, you question has no human answer. It has been said that “the good die young” because God dosen’t want them corrupted later in life.

My friends 25 year old daughter was paralized from the neck down in a auto accident 5 years ago. Her life is an example of a “take up your cross daily”. Why? We don’t know.

Chris G
 
Great answers and exchange of ideas 👍 The mysteriousness (in our feeble minds) of God’s will and the operation of His divine providence are wondrous to behold. His options in dealing with us are not limited to whether He directly causes something good or bad to happen to us. There is no reason why God will not use random events for His purposes. Should some terrible random-event happen in our lives, the Lord is always there for us to call upon. He will provide us with the necessary grace and strength to overcome the difficulty. So also when something fortuitous happens we must remember that even random blessings are opportunities for thanksgiving to the creator who is the primary cause of all things.
 
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