Going without health insurance?

[dixieagle]

Wow. No wonder things are this way in this country. No one has a clue how health care and insurance even works or how much their care ACTUALLY costs.

Costs in health care do not have the benefit of the price regulation of the free market. This drives costs up for everyone. If you are insured you have no real tangible appreciation of that because the cost to you is only what your premiums and co-pays are.

Employer based insurance is the problem.

Imagine if your employer bought your groceries for you. You’d pay a premium and go get what you needed for food every month with a small co-pay per visit. You never had to consider the actual cost of the food you’re buying and the stores would have no motivation to keep costs low and competitive because of that. Problem is the people who don’t have food coverage would be shopping at the same stores and have the pay the same non-competitive inflated prices. Buying food would become unattainable for many people.

What would we do, tell them all to go to the food bank? Can you imagine how overtaxed the food bank would become? Where would all the food come from and who would pay for it?

The problem is employer based health care. It started during the depression and it’s time has come and gone. Insurance structured as it is drives costs UP for everyone. Just be glad if you are part of the everyone who has recourse to insurance.

I’ve got to say I agree 100%. Those of us who are employed or whose spouses are employed with good health coverage are incredibly fortunate; I well know that it could all change in the blink of an eye.

I’ve never understood why health insurance should be tied to employment anyways - it seems incongruent to me. And the point about not really knowing how much health-related services really costs is so true.

The “I’ve got mine and you better not mess with it” attitude I’ve seen from so many supposedly Christian people on the issue of health care is disillusioning, to say the least.

 

[Cat]

I’m going to make a suggestion to the OP and to all others, especially young couples, who are reading this thread.

My husband and I received this suggestion back when we were first married from one of the “Christian” financial counselors that was writing “Christian finances” books back then. Yes, we trashed a lot of the man’s suggestions as impractical (for a skating family, that is!).

But we took this suggestion, and it has been a godsend.

Try very hard to live on just ONE income, even if that means a very simple lifestyle.

I know that some of you live on two incomes and are still living in the poverty levels because neither of you has the skills or educational credentials to get a higher-paying job. This suggestion isn’t really appropriate for those of you in this situation.

This suggestion is meant for those who are living on two incomes and are fairly comfortable in your lifestyle. (Not lavish–just comfortable by your standards.)

I worked for the first few years of our marriage, but once we had children, I stayed home to raise them. Oh, my, were we ever poor! Our house, car, and pretty much everything else was literally falling apart around us, but we were committed to living on one income and keeping me home with our daughters while they were toddlers.

When the children were both in school, I went back to work. We had moved by then (back up to Northern Illinois), and both of the girls were into figure skating, and we realized at that point that we had made a bad mistake to move to the city where we moved because of the deseg lawsuit that turned our public schools into a social experiment, necessitating private schools (or homeschools–several thousand children and teens in our city are homeschooled.) We should have moved to the suburbs or to one of the many small towns outside of Chicago.

So I went back to work to pay–not for house, food, car, insurance, etc. I went back to work to pay for ice skating and private schools.

Obviously at any time, we could have dropped the ice skating, and we could have dropped private schools and done homeschooling.

So my income was not necessary to pay for any of the basic living/survival expenses. It was, literally, to pay for luxuries, although I am not exaggerating to say that the public school situation in our city is horrific (highest truancy rate in the state, highest dropout rate in the state, lowest standardized test scores in the state, etc. etc.).

Unless I am misinterpreting the OP, I believe she said that she and her husband were making enough money to pay for 75% of their expenses and still have 25% left over for “fun.” It sounds to me like the OP and her husband were using BOTH of their incomes to pay for the 75%. That, IMO, could have been a mistake. A second income should be used entirely for the “fun.”

Some of you are getting upset at me because I keep pointing out possible “mistakes” in the OPs financial plans. That’s why we have this thread, don’t we? There are others reading this thread who have financial woes, so we are not just helping the OP here, but helping each other. I think that we need to be honest and open with each other and point out what we think are errors in finances. We can all learn from the errors that we have made and lived through. I am not making any claims to financial wizardry here. I have been very open about pointing out big mistakes that my husband and I made, mainly not moving to a place that would have given us a better lifestyle. We would have taken a loss on our house, but we would have been set up for a very nice dozen years of raising children.

AND we might have been able to actually save some money and set up some kind of retirement plan. We are in very dangerous straits right now, as are many people our age, because we spent so much on high taxes (our property taxes are among the highest in the U.S.), figure skating, private schools, and college expenses. Yes, we have family members who will take us in–that is one of our “Plan Bs” should my husband and I both lose our jobs. Yes, we have other options for making money; e.g., consulting work for my husband, piano gigs for me. Yes, we both have health for the time being, although my mobility is very limited now, which is discouraging. At this point, honestly, my “retirement plan” consists of dying by age 65, because we don’t have anything saved. Plan C is living on the streets, as I described earlier!

So you see, I’m not such a nasty person. I’m just trying to point out that the choices we make ALWAYS affect our future. Obviously none of us purposely chose to work for a company that died in this economy and put us out of work. But we DID make the choice to work for that company instead of Company B, which is still going strong (darn it all!–isn’t that frustrating?!)

Many people have lost their jobs, and had contingency plans that have kept them going strong. My dad retired from a factory at age 55, and had insurance and a retirement pension. It all went bust a few years ago, when the company ran out of money. But he had a safety net–VA benefits, and that’s what he is using now at age 80. He also has many different means of making money–e.g., one of his “jobs” is copper wire. He drives to sales and buys it cheap, then sells it–makes good money doing that. I see others who drive around the neighborhoods picking up old appliances to get the wire out of them and sell them–good for them! (Maybe my husband and I can do that for a retirement income!)

I believe that in the U.S.A., we have a lot of options, and we really need to work WITH our current economic system, including our current health insurance system, instead of bewailing the fact that we don’t have “free” health care and dreaming of some beautiful system that doesn’t exist and probably won’t exist in the near future.

 

[HouseArrest]

It sounds like your husband was trying to be honest when he turned down the part time job, but I would not have turned that down. I would suggest (if it isn’t already the case) that he take whatever job comes his way that is not going to cost you money or be impossible to take. You never know what it could turn into - it could be a career change he didn’t even know he wanted.

 

[kage_ar]

Cat - which industries and companies do you feel as going strong? We can take this to another forum if you want…

I’d love to know, according to what you see, where should all of the unemployed be looking? (BTW, degrees and technial expetise are in place in this household.)

 

[shannyk]

I’ve got to say I agree 100%. Those of us who are employed or whose spouses are employed with good health coverage are incredibly fortunate; I well know that it could all change in the blink of an eye.

I’ve never understood why health insurance should be tied to employment anyways - it seems incongruent to me. And the point about not really knowing how much health-related services really costs is so true.

The “I’ve got mine and you better not mess with it” attitude I’ve seen from so many supposedly Christian people on the issue of health care is disillusioning, to say the least.

The whole employer based insurance thing started small at Baylor hospital offering insurance to teachers. Then during the depression it grew exponentially because employers were competing big time for labor, when there were men off at war so the labor force was depleted, yet because of the war goods needed to be produced in huge numbers. So, here comes fringe benefits. It was a way for one employer to sweeten the pot to prospective employees. Offering good benefits packages was also important to companies (and still VERY much is) because it costs less than increasing salaries. That’s how we came to expect that employers pay for our heath care. We need to get new expectations.

Yes, the attitudes are truly frightening.

In the U.S., there are many “free” clinics; there’s one in our city that uses a sliding scale of payment or is free for those who have no funds. Fifty Board-certified physicians work there, the same doctors that do private practices. It’s a great place. It’s funded primarily through private donations. I would go there if I needed health care and didn’t have insurance.

I don’t know if this is true across the U.S., but the E.R. in our hospital is not allowed by law to turn anyone away. Many people use the E.R for a free clinic, and that’s an option for your family, especially for your children. Use the E.R.

There’s also the County Health Dept, which will do free exams on your kids and give your kids any inoculations that they need, along with meds.

Cat it is federal law that ER’s cannot turn people away. It is not specified what kind of care they must receive. Taking you child to the ER for an earache and a fever you will get an exam and be sent off with a prescription which you have to either have insurance for or pay for out of pocket. No one is giving out free prescriptions unless you’re talking about a medicaid funded clinic, like the ‘free’ clinic you describe. No, you don’t walk into a free clinic and just get free care, you have to fill out paperwork and qualify. If you don’t you’ll get treated and billed, might be at a lesser rate, but you’ll still get a bill.

You also have to remember Cat that you live in IL. IL ha a big medicaid budget. IL is a very populous state and has a lot of revenue and big ‘budgets’. They spend a lot on medicaid and consequently get more federal money to match their funds. In IL counties also fund medicaid, so, there is a lot of money being put into these ‘free’ clinics. This is not at all the case in every state. Not everyone can move to IL either

Here is a really touching story of a WI family in the insurance bind. The husband is joining the army so that his wife can continue her ovarian cancer treatment.

He was leaving, even though Mom was sick with ovarian cancer. Even though he had been at her side through two long, miserable rounds of chemotherapy. Even though she now faced the likelihood of a third.

In fact, Dad was leaving because Mom was sick.

In March, he was laid off from his job as a raw materials coordinator for a plastics company called PolyOne, where he’d worked for 20 years. His severance package had provided several months’ salary, but by August the paychecks were winding down. Soon the cost of his family health coverage was going to triple, then a few months after that, nearly triple again. They needed coverage so Mom could fight her cancer.

Dad’s solution: a four-year hitch in the Army.

jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/64677772.html

 

[Cat]

The whole employer based insurance thing started small at Baylor hospital offering insurance to teachers. Then during the depression it grew exponentially because employers were competing big time for labor, when there were men off at war so the labor force was depleted, yet because of the war goods needed to be produced in huge numbers. So, here comes fringe benefits. It was a way for one employer to sweeten the pot to prospective employees. Offering good benefits packages was also important to companies (and still VERY much is) because it costs less than increasing salaries. That’s how we came to expect that employers pay for our heath care. We need to get new expectations.

Yes, the attitudes are truly frightening.

Cat it is federal law that ER’s cannot turn people away. It is not specified what kind of care they must receive. Taking you child to the ER for an earache and a fever you will get an exam and be sent off with a prescription which you have to either have insurance for or pay for out of pocket. No one is giving out free prescriptions unless you’re talking about a medicaid funded clinic, like the ‘free’ clinic you describe. No, you don’t walk into a free clinic and just get free care, you have to fill out paperwork and qualify. If you don’t you’ll get treated and billed, might be at a lesser rate, but you’ll still get a bill.

You also have to remember Cat that you live in IL. IL ha a big medicaid budget. IL is a very populous state and has a lot of revenue and big ‘budgets’. They spend a lot on medicaid and consequently get more federal money to match their funds. In IL counties also fund medicaid, so, there is a lot of money being put into these ‘free’ clinics. This is not at all the case in every state. Not everyone can move to IL either

Here is a really touching story of a WI family in the insurance bind. The husband is joining the army so that his wife can continue her ovarian cancer treatment.

jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/64677772.html

I’m not so sure about the Medicaid situation in Illinois. I could be getting Medicaid and Medicare mixed up, but I know that our hospital (and all the others) is owed millions by the state in reimbursements, but the state doesn’t pay (mainly because the state has no money).

So our hospital has to delay projects that really need to get started, or start the projects based on the money that we are owed by the state.

Everyone, I’m very very suspicious of any kind of health care funded by “the government.” I’m not even sure I believe in Medicare, although I think that for the current generation of Seniors, it’s probably a necessity.

 

[Cat]

Cat - which industries and companies do you feel as going strong? We can take this to another forum if you want…

I’d love to know, according to what you see, where should all of the unemployed be looking? (BTW, degrees and technial expetise are in place in this household.)

It would be an interesting thread and hopefully helpful to those who are looking for a career. Would it work in the Financial Section of the CAF?

Right off the top of my head, I would say health care, school teaching, and recycling.

Many of the health care professions are in critical shortages right now. I’m not just talking about the “icky” ones involving blood and bedpans and needles. Medical records is a career that is booming. There always seems to be a shortage of Unit Clerks in our hospital.

Schools are looking especially for male teachers, especially minority males.

My brother is a welder at a metal recycling factory, and he works several hours a week of overtime because they have too much work.

 

[cjellis27]

PLEASE choose to get health insurance. I decided when I was self employed and starting a new business after my husband left me, that I would forego health insurance as buying it was too expensive. I thought, I am healthy, I have never needed to go to the hospital, I go to my physician once a year, what is the benefit related to the cost. I got an additional job that offered insurance in September 2007. Then, in November I was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Thank God I had insurance. My first hospital stay cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I say get the credit card for groceries and keep your family safe, just in case.

 

[noclevername]

You need to go to www.nfcc.org. THis is a nonprofit financial counseling group. They are reputable and are recommended by many people. You need to go to that website and find a counselor in your area and talk to them about your finances. They can help set up a budget. They might suggest a debt management plan for you,etc. You really need to get in touch with these people and it is completely free. Please do this now.

 

[Cat]

I thought this would be useful for those who have been hit with recession woes. It’s an article about the top 42 places in the U.S. to find jobs:

images.businessweek.com/ss/09/10/1022_40_strongest_us_metro_economies/31.htm

Interestingly, Chicago isn’t in there! But there are a lot of cities all over the U.S., and perhaps those who are discouraged could find something close to them.

 

[kage_ar]

I thought this would be useful for those who have been hit with recession woes. It’s an article about the top 42 places in the U.S. to find jobs:

images.businessweek.com/ss/09/10/1022_40_strongest_us_metro_economies/31.htm

Interestingly, Chicago isn’t in there! But there are a lot of cities all over the U.S., and perhaps those who are discouraged could find something close to them.

They have Little Rock as #4. That is hysterical! There are NO jobs in Central Arkansas.

 

[whatevergirl]

My family is at the point where we get to choose between going without health insurance for DH and the kids (I am pregnant and need to have insurance to cut costs of delivery), or slipping enough in paying our mortgage that we will get a $100 fee that we can’t afford each month - pushing us further and further back until eventually we miss a payment by more than 30 days, unless our financial situation changes before then.

I’ve looked at government programs, and the kids might qualify for cheap insurance - but possibly not until we’ve gone without insurance for them for 4 months (DH is filling out the application anyways today). Once they get on the cheap insurance program, they will probably also qualify for WIC, which will save us the cost of the reduced-cost insurance in grocery funds. The baby will probably qualify for this health insurance from birth, having never been covered by private insurance.

My DH seems to be coming around to the necessity of this, but wants to instead get another credit card and buy our groceries on that so that we can afford health insurance for the kids. He’s been putting it very emotionally: “You would rather avoid getting another credit card than get health insurance for our kids.” Well, yes, I would. Because I manage our finances, and I know how much our current credit card bills cost us for just the minimum payments. And I know we can’t afford another bill. I think I’ve won him over, but words like that cut deep.

Am I heading down the right path here? I really don’t see what else we can cut. We already are not heating our house except occasional space-heating and the fireplace (free wood being fairly easy to find) and are struggling to get a healthy diet on a low grocery budget - the health care is equal to 1/2 of our grocery budget. We do have a cell phone and internet, but they are needed for DH’s job search and for me to work from home if I or DH gets sick so I don’t lose hours. We have one frivilous bill of $10 a month for Netflix, but it’s our only “TV”, plus it’s 1/20th of the cost of our health care bill so really won’t change the basic problem here. I really don’t think another piece of debt and another credit card bill is the right answer to this problem.

I just took the health insurance course, finished it today, as I’m getting my license to sell back in tact. (I had it before coming to my present company, I don’t need it, but they want me to have it, and I let it lapse years ago) That said, in the state of Florida, there is a state provision for kids to be covered for free…all coverages, not just catastophic. That would be, exams, shots, and illnesses, etc…Your state should have a similiar provision. I believe all states are mandated to take care of children under health care plans. Individual healthcare CAN be very expensive, BUT you could look into getting your kids covered for free under the state you live in…and only getting a policy on your husband. If he is in good health, he should be able to received a standard or maybe preferred rate. I knew all this years ago, it was nice to get a refresher course. The government plan being tossed around now is not going to be a good plan…and it’s not going to be free like many think. But, I don’t want to get into a political thing…but that is my semi-professional advice to you…a)check you the provisions for children to be taken care of in your state for free and b) only get a policy for your husband. I will keep you all in my prayers!

PS–Your baby WILL qualify for health insurance from the DAY he/she is born on private healthcare ONLY IF you have a family plan …that is a state law…I believe in all states. It is so in Florida. I’m speaking of Florida law when I share this, but truly, you should be able to find completely free coverage through your state. Now, you might not be able to walk into any doctor you choose, but it’s better than no coverage.

 

[whatevergirl]

PLEASE choose to get health insurance. I decided when I was self employed and starting a new business after my husband left me, that I would forego health insurance as buying it was too expensive. I thought, I am healthy, I have never needed to go to the hospital, I go to my physician once a year, what is the benefit related to the cost. I got an additional job that offered insurance in September 2007. Then, in November I was diagnosed with an aggressive blood cancer. Thank God I had insurance. My first hospital stay cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I say get the credit card for groceries and keep your family safe, just in case.

*I completely agree. What people seem to confuse, is that the COST of healthcare is the problem in our country, the way it’s paid for is the SECONDARY issue. Not the first issue. Insurance is merely a means of paying for healthcare…it’s **not **healthcare. Many think it’s the insurance companies…yes, reform is needed. But, insurance companies are designed to pay for the cost of healthcare. That is what is out of control. That a hospital stay for a few weeks would be anywhere near $100k is unbelievable. Reform needs to take place in reigning in the soaring costs of healthcare…and then the insurance premiums will naturally drop. *

 

[shannyk]

Problem is health insurance being tied to employers and laws protecting the co’s shield it and providers form fair market competition that typically drives good and services down.

Insurance in general drives costs up. It’s seen in pet insurance, and other kids of insurance too, but to a lesser extent becasue those it’s competitive (more so anyway). There are lots of economics behind that principal, so I don’t think it’s far off to say insurance is more than just a means of payment. What insurance pays is not reflective of actual cost.

There is so much that needs to be considered in this issue. There is no easy fix. I hope the OP has got things sorted out

 

[whatevergirl]

Problem is health insurance being tied to employers and laws protecting the co’s shield it and providers form fair market competition that typically drives good and services down.

Insurance in general drives costs up. It’s seen in pet insurance, and other kids of insurance too, but to a lesser extent becasue those it’s competitive (more so anyway). There are lots of economics behind that principal, so I don’t think it’s far off to say insurance is more than just a means of payment. What insurance pays is not reflective of actual cost.

There is so much that needs to be considered in this issue. There is no easy fix. I hope the OP has got things sorted out

All around, the healthcare ‘system’ needs reform, no doubt. To the OP, I hope things work out for you and your family. Please know you’re in our prayers here. (Sorry I went a little OT!)

 

[Litcrit]

LongingForLight, I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. I guess I’d go without health insurance for a few months and pray.

We all went without health coverage for several months when DD was a toddler and nothing happened, we never needed a doctor.

Hoping and praying once the baby comes you’ll find a great job again and all will be back to normal.

There are many governments that do pay for health care, quite successfully too. They work on the same principle as insurance companies: you get many people paying into the pot, on the assumption that not everyone is going to need money from that pot at the same time. So there will always be enough money there.

The U.S. government has spent billions on non-health issues already, notably the bailing out of big financial institutions that were involved in corrupt practices that has brought the U.S to it’s knees. This could be considered corporate welfare, especially since the super rich are still getting bonuses related to this. Why is the average U.S. taxpayer on the hook for this? Yet that same average U.S. taxpayer is scrambling to find health care he/she can afford.

There is something wrong with this picture.

Coming from a poor country with economic problems in the past two decades and with free health care for everyone, I have to agree.

Our taxes aren’t high. We just choose universal healthcare as a priority when budgeting.

Health care costs in the US are not reflective of the real costs of delivering the services. There are inflated by many factors, including insurance profits (both on the patient side and the liability side) that just do not exist in other places. And often, medical decisions are actually being made by bean counters at those insurance companies - people with no public accountability or interest in medical best practice. Why else are doctors and hospitals not allowing women to have VBACs, even though that is the safest for moms and babies?

To the OP - if you can’t afford to actually use the insurance, I don’t see any point in having it. I guess the problem would be if something really catastrophic happened.

I find the whole private insurance model really hard to wrap my head around. If I need to go to the doctor I go; if I need hospital care I get it. The only bill I ever had was for up-grading to a private room when I had my babies.

Excellent points. I’m European too and my experiences are almost identical. VBACs are the norm here and you only pay if you want something ‘extra’ - like a private birthing suite.

*I completely agree. What people seem to confuse, is that the COST of healthcare is the problem in our country, the way it’s paid for is the SECONDARY issue. …] That a hospital stay for a few weeks would be anywhere near $100k is unbelievable. *

Indeed. If a non-citizen gives birth in a L&D hospital here and stays for three days (standard here), they pay about 1000 euros. For citizens it’s free, of course.

 

[Beachcomber]

Neither dh nor I have health insurance. He is an independent contractor and the jobs that I have had offer health insurance, but the premiums are just too high, as is the deductible.

It is an awful thing to have to choose between food or insurance or paying this bill or that bill. We just don’t have insurance and hope for the best. When I was injured at work, it was the first time in years I’d been to a doctor and not have to worry about how I was paying for it. The doctor was also very nice and gave me a prescription for high blood pressure, which didn’t have anything to do with my injury.

.

 

[LongingForLight]

That said, in the state of Florida, there is a state provision for kids to be covered for free…all coverages, not just catastophic. That would be, exams, shots, and illnesses, etc…Your state should have a similiar provision. I believe all states are mandated to take care of children under health care plans.

Doesn’t seem to be the case for WA state - at least, not at our income. If we earned about 6K a year less, they would be covered for free. As is, they should be covered for $20 / month each for a total of $40 (maximum 2 kids) starting in 4 months, possibly sooner since the private insurance we used for them wasn’t through my work. I keep forgetting to buy stamps so we can mail the forms, though We should probably wait until the end of the month (Saturday) anyways, just to increase our odds of getting the state insurance for them right away. But once we get it, it will be 100% FREE beyond the actual insurance cost, which is pretty low- no copays, no deductibles.

We did get in their checkups, which are 7 months overdue already, and they are in fine health.

PS–Your baby WILL qualify for health insurance from the DAY he/she is born on private healthcare ONLY IF you have a family plan …that is a state law…I believe in all states. It is so in Florida. I’m speaking of Florida law when I share this, but truly, you should be able to find completely free coverage through your state. Now, you might not be able to walk into any doctor you choose, but it’s better than no coverage.

The state will probably cover our baby at the $20/month rate from day 1, since she was never on private insurance (the only reason we will probably need to wait 4 months for the girls is because they are, until the end of the month). We can’t possibly afford the family plan from my work, as that is something like $500 a month.

We were on state coverage once before, starting when I was pregnant w/ twins and had to quit my job at 24 weeks for health reasons. DH was working at the time, but well below the double-the-poverty-line limit for free health care for the kids. It was really pretty good - we didn’t have to change a single provider at that time, and I doubt we will need to change providers now if the kids end up on state medical. The only down side was medical providers who didn’t remember me started treating me differently once my insurance changed . . . instead of answering questions and taking my Internet research seriously, they dumbed everything down and told me not to worry whenever I had a health concern sigh.

 

[LongingForLight]

You need to go to www.nfcc.org. THis is a nonprofit financial counseling group. They are reputable and are recommended by many people. You need to go to that website and find a counselor in your area and talk to them about your finances. They can help set up a budget. They might suggest a debt management plan for you,etc. You really need to get in touch with these people and it is completely free. Please do this now.

I’ll check, but I’m really dubious about what they could do for us - we don’t have an overspending issue that can be solved with a budget, nor do we have any surplus at the moment to use to get out of this mess. But “free” is absolutely in our budget and I’m never one to turn down free advice. This is one area where I would love to be proven wrong! And if DH does find work, they might be able to suggest how we can best use that extra money.

 

[LongingForLight]

Unless I am misinterpreting the OP, I believe she said that she and her husband were making enough money to pay for 75% of their expenses and still have 25% left over for “fun.” It sounds to me like the OP and her husband were using BOTH of their incomes to pay for the 75%. That, IMO, could have been a mistake. A second income should be used entirely for the “fun.”

I was the sole income at the time. DH quit to be a SAHD 6 months before I got that position, and almost a full year before we bought the house. We made the decision to buy the house knowing that on ONE income at a supposedly stable job, we would still have 25% for additional savings. Our plan was to put that towards paying off our mortgage. We were hoping that with normal raises, etc., we’d be able to pay off the mortgage entirely within 10 years. We were also debt-free at the time.