Good & Bad reasons to change rites?

[Peter_J]

You’re very welcome.

I guess I was just taking the “living up to it name” a bit too literally.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Thank you for the sympathy.

Sorry I was a little dramatic in my presentation of the issue. I’m sure some of them are Ukrainian, but it’s basically just an amalgamation of various Latin-rite parishioners rather than any sort of community. Christian family is very essential in any parish, and not to have that is a very bad sign for the health of a parish.

I will wait. I will find a way to buy a chotki or vervitsa. I will pray St. Pachomius’ Rule. Anything that can attach me to the depths of my spiritual home… God is good. He will provide.

Dear Basilian,

I truly empathize with your situation and understand the difficulties you are encountering. My suggestion: go the the Divine Liturgy as and when you can; otherwise, attend Mass as regularly as possible; pray the prayers that speak to your heart, whether “Eastern” or “Western”; as much as possible follow the lectionary; chotkis/prayer ropes are available on many internet sites; and…hang in there!!! As the saying goes, “Blossom where you’re planted.”

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Basilian]

Dear Basilian,

I truly empathize with your situation and understand the difficulties you are encountering. My suggestion: go the the Divine Liturgy as and when you can; otherwise, attend Mass as regularly as possible; pray the prayers that speak to your heart, whether “Eastern” or “Western”; as much as possible follow the lectionary; chotkis/prayer ropes are available on many internet sites; and…hang in there!!! As the saying goes, “Blossom where you’re planted.”

In Christ,
MinM

Thank you, Michael. I am sure many Byzantine-rite and Oriental-rite(s) Catholics feel cut off at times, especially in the West.

I will not be disobedient to the Magisterium, hierarchy, and precepts. Mass is Mass! A friend is giving me a 30-knot chotki as a gift. I’ve taken to using St. Pachomius’ Rule for morning & evening prayer, namely in this version: byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/a-rule-of-prayer/31-resources/resources/2705-a-morning-rule-of-prayer It is beautiful, and reminds me of why I really want to change rites: so that God may be glorified to the best of my ability, according to my spiritual home.

We must be patient, and grow in holiness and love of God. The just shall flourish like the palm tree - even like a lily in the house of the Lord - and the Lord’s house is the same for us all.

 

[Shirtless]

Brethren, I’m a Latin-rite Catholic looking into entering the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Church, sui iuris. Unfortunately, the only UGCC parish in my area is a Mission, which has the Divine Liturgy once a month, celebrated by a pastor who has to travel far to get to it.

I admit that my interest in the western Mass - OF and EF - has fallen sharply in the last few years. I would not say “escaping the Latin rite” is my reason for changing rites, though in all honesty I prefer the Eastern liturgies. If one is merely “interested in Eastern spirituality” - as many are - is this a bad reason to want to become an Eastern Catholic? I yearn to be with them in all things, not merely “pretending” to be Eastern - but truly being within the Rite.

My intention is to enter completely into Eastern Catholic life. I have no desire to be ordained, so I am not trying to escape celibacy. My entire family is atheist, and I am the only Catholic of any sort, so there are no familial ties to strengthen by a rite-change. No other insufficient reasons seem to come to my mind, but I’d like to know what you think.

What is good, and what is bad, in terms of the Rite Change?

I was baptized and confirmed a Ukrainian Catholic in November 1957 at the age of 30 days, and I currently attend a Ukrainian Catholic Church in Phoenix, Arizona. I wish you every success on your spiritual journey.

 

[Shirtless]

The local RC parish had some problems. The pastor who was sent there to build a big church, because he had a reputation of raising money ended up sentenced to 15 years for crimes with altar boys. Quite a few associate pastors left the church. Then another pastor was charged with abuse. Then an associate was the editor and founder of a radical gay magazine. At a Mass for college students another pastor climbed up on the altar to preach. Then an associate baptized two gay men who were living together full immersion in the nude.
An ex nun was the dre who was married to an ex priest. I could go on.

I shopped around for another parish after confronting the bishop about the craziness. There were some that were some better, but by that time I had developed a heightened sense of wariness. One parish had no tabernacle. It was not off and hidden somewhere. There was none. Another had silly dancers. By chance I went to a Divine Liturgy about an hours drive from my home. That was over twenty years ago. It was all it took. I never looked back and do not have a single regret.

The majority of this parish is comprised today of RC refugees like me. We have found a place to worship in peace not in agony and anger. If the shoe fits wear it.

My situation is somewhat similar to yours. My mother and I were both born in the United States, but she and her ancestors were Ukrainian. I was baptized and confirmed in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in November 1957 at the age of 30 days. I attended the Ukrainian Catholic Church growing up. After we moved to the suburbs, we began attending a Roman Catholic parish, and I continued that practice into adulthood.

In 2000, I moved to Scottsdale, Arizona (near Phoenix), and I joined a Roman Catholic parish. I was a Lector and otherwise active in the parish. Unfortunately, a priest at that parish was accused of molesting little boys. He fled to Ireland and is now a fugitive from justice. Ireland declines to extradite him to the United States.

Worse, Thomas O’Brien, the former bishop of Phoenix, entered into a criminal plea agreement to avoid prosecution for shuffling pedophile priests from one parish to another. Shortly after he did that, he was driving his automobile home from a parish church, and he committed hit-and-run involving death, and left an Indian on the road, dying or dead, and did not even stop to see what he had done. The Indian died. Luckily, someone spotted him and copied down his license plate number, and reported it to the police. When the Phoenix police came to investigate, O’Brien initially refused to cooperate with him. Although I do not know, I strongly suspect that O’Brien was drunk, and was trying to gain additional time to sober up. O’Brien was “requested” to resign by the Vatican, and he did, but it took three hours to persuade him to sign the necessary papers. He subsequently became the first U.S. Catholic bishop in the United States to be convicted of a felony.

The current Roman Catholic Bishop of Phoenix (Thomas Olmstead) apparently approves of O’Brien’s conduct, because O’Brien is permitted to live in the bishop’s residence, while Olmsted lives in the rectory of the Cathedral.

Then, I attended a Roman Catholic Mass in which the deacon read a poem sympathetic to Communists being persecuted and said that it was NEVER permissible to take a human life (not even in self defense?). I decided I had enough of the Roman Catholic church.

I was greatly troubled, because, from a moral and spiritual point of view, I had no problem with being Catholic, just with its representatives in the Diocese of Phoenix. I prayed, and I wondered what my mother and my maternal grandfather would under such circumstances (both of whom were dead by that time). Then I recalled that I was Ukrainian Catholic, so I did some investigation, and I found a Ukrainian Catholic church in Phoenix (who would have thought?). I went there the next Sunday, and it was like a spiritual homecoming.

Our pastor is married and has three children. The Ukrainian Catholic church ordains married men to the priesthood. He has been a tremendous spiritual help to me. Ukrainian Catholics have been in full communion with the Apostolic See in Rome since the Union of Brest was signed in 1596. I consider myself very fortunate to be Ukrainian Catholic, and to have found the Phoenix parish when I did, because, on account of the shameful conduct of Bishop O’Brien and others in the Diocese of Phoenix, I could not remain or become a Roman Catholic today.

Please note the following about Ukrainian Catholics:

(1) Yes, we are Catholic.
(2) No, we are not Roman Catholic.
(3) No, we are not Orthodox.
(4) And, bleepity-bleep, we are NOT Russians.

 

[MichaelinMD]

My situation is somewhat similar to yours. My mother and I were both born in the United States, but she and her ancestors were Ukrainian. I was baptized and confirmed in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in November 1957 at the age of 30 days. I attended the Ukrainian Catholic Church growing up. After we moved to the suburbs, we began attending a Roman Catholic parish, and I continued that practice into adulthood.

In 2000, I moved to Scottsdale, Arizona (near Phoenix), and I joined a Roman Catholic parish. I was a Lector and otherwise active in the parish. Unfortunately, a priest at that parish was accused of molesting little boys. He fled to Ireland and is now a fugitive from justice. Ireland declines to extradite him to the United States.

Worse, Thomas O’Brien, the former bishop of Phoenix, entered into a criminal plea agreement to avoid prosecution for shuffling pedophile priests from one parish to another. Shortly after he did that, he was driving his automobile home from a parish church, and he committed hit-and-run involving death, and left an Indian on the road, dying or dead, and did not even stop to see what he had done. The Indian died. Luckily, someone spotted him and copied down his license plate number, and reported it to the police. When the Phoenix police came to investigate, O’Brien initially refused to cooperate with him. Although I do not know, I strongly suspect that O’Brien was drunk, and was trying to gain additional time to sober up. O’Brien was “requested” to resign by the Vatican, and he did, but it took three hours to persuade him to sign the necessary papers. He subsequently became the first U.S. Catholic bishop in the United States to be convicted of a felony.

The current Roman Catholic Bishop of Phoenix (Thomas Olmstead) apparently approves of O’Brien’s conduct, because O’Brien is permitted to live in the bishop’s residence, while Olmsted lives in the rectory of the Cathedral.

Then, I attended a Roman Catholic Mass in which the deacon read a poem sympathetic to Communists being persecuted and said that it was NEVER permissible to take a human life (not even in self defense?). I decided I had enough of the Roman Catholic church.

I was greatly troubled, because, from a moral and spiritual point of view, I had no problem with being Catholic, just with its representatives in the Diocese of Phoenix. I prayed, and I wondered what my mother and my maternal grandfather would under such circumstances (both of whom were dead by that time). Then I recalled that I was Ukrainian Catholic, so I did some investigation, and I found a Ukrainian Catholic church in Phoenix (who would have thought?). I went there the next Sunday, and it was like a spiritual homecoming.

Our pastor is married and has three children. The Ukrainian Catholic church ordains married men to the priesthood. He has been a tremendous spiritual help to me. Ukrainian Catholics have been in full communion with the Apostolic See in Rome since the Union of Brest was signed in 1596. I consider myself very fortunate to be Ukrainian Catholic, and to have found the Phoenix parish when I did, because, on account of the shameful conduct of Bishop O’Brien and others in the Diocese of Phoenix, I could not remain or become a Roman Catholic today.

Please note the following about Ukrainian Catholics:

(1) Yes, we are Catholic.
(2) No, we are not Roman Catholic.
(3) No, we are not Orthodox.
(4) And, bleepity-bleep, we are NOT Russians.

Thanks for sharing that, Shirtless!

I’m so glad you were eventually able to return to the church of your baptism. How wonderful that must have been for you! I hope and pray that one day, I too, will have that joyful experience!

Your 4 points at the end of your post are excellent–especially #4–that made me LOL!

I have to say, though, that as bad as the actions/attitude of the Diocese of Phoenix and it’s bishops has been, it is not representative of the RCC as a whole, in spite of all the negative publicity and the sex scandals. There are many forces in and of the world that would like nothing better than to see the destruction of the largest of the Catholic Churches.

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Elizium23]

I don’t understand where you get the idea that Bishop Olmsted condones O’Brien’s behavior just because the Bishop Emeritus is given a place to live. As a retired bishop of the diocese, he is entitled to that, just as Bishop Olmsted is entitled to live where he pleases.

Bishop Olmsted has been a remarkable blessing to the Diocese of Phoenix. In matters liturgical and spiritual, he has been a strong leader. He has shown courage and commitment to the Faith in such controversial matters as the abortion at St. Joseph’s Hospital, and is attracting strong vocations to the priesthood and religious life. He regularly writes columns in the diocesan newspaper that faithfully teach and instruct the people on a wide range of topics. His program of promoting Gregorian chant in the Cathedral liturgies is bearing good fruit throughout the whole diocese.

I am sorry that you didn’t like being a Latin Catholic, and for a while even I escaped to the Byzantine Catholic parish nearby, but I am proud to be under Bishop Olmsted’s omophor, because he is a brave and faithful shepherd.

 

[MichaelinMD]

I don’t understand where you get the idea that Bishop Olmsted condones O’Brien’s behavior just because the Bishop Emeritus is given a place to live. As a retired bishop of the diocese, he is entitled to that, just as Bishop Olmsted is entitled to live where he pleases.

Bishop Olmsted has been a remarkable blessing to the Diocese of Phoenix. In matters liturgical and spiritual, he has been a strong leader. He has shown courage and commitment to the Faith in such controversial matters as the abortion at St. Joseph’s Hospital, and is attracting strong vocations to the priesthood and religious life. He regularly writes columns in the diocesan newspaper that faithfully teach and instruct the people on a wide range of topics. His program of promoting Gregorian chant in the Cathedral liturgies is bearing good fruit throughout the whole diocese.

I am sorry that you didn’t like being a Latin Catholic, and for a while even I escaped to the Byzantine Catholic parish nearby, but I am proud to be under Bishop Olmsted’s omophor, because he is a brave and faithful shepherd.

Thanks for posting that, Elizium23! It made me remember hearing other good things about Bp. Olmstead. In light of that, let me revise the last paragraph of my post above yours to read, “I have to say, though, that as bad as the actions/attitude of Bp. O’Brien were, that is not representative of the RCC as a whole, in spite of all the negative publicity and the sex scandals. There are many forces in and of the world that would like nothing better than to see the destruction of the largest of the Catholic Churches.”

In Christ,
MinM

 

[badeebadi]

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