good news to all wiccans

[KarenNC]

** Have you read St. Thomas Aquinas? St. Anselm of Canterbury? **

Yes.

Fairies, was from the vary beginning of there being thought about, was known to be fake.

Evidence please.

** Most scholars believe that most of the things in the Bible are historical fact. The ancient cities of Jericho and Ur were discovered, and these places are mentioned in the Bible and would have never been found unless it was in the Bible, pretty much.**

Schliemann would not have discovered the city of Troy if it were not mentioned in Homer. Does this make all of Homer historical fact and literally true? I am a Hellenic Neopagan and even I do not believe that.

**After all, the big bang theory proves religion more that atheism. **

How?

 

[Mirdath]

And yes, secularism and materialism and humanism has a lot to do with the refrain from religion. Most people in ancient times were not atheistical, even though they believed in pagan gods. I have yet to see a secularism with as much sincere love as Mohatmas Ghandi or Mother Teresa. If there are, where are they? You could argue that they are not given much attention, but I would argue that everything is on the news these day.

Well, belief in any god or gods is enough to make the label ‘atheist’ unstickable

As to non-religious people with as much sincere love for others as Gandhi or Teresa – they really are all around you. They just aren’t famous or distinctive. Gandhi was not famous for his love, but for his disobedience; and Teresa was not famous for her love but for the structure she built around it. Most people don’t have the ability to start a globe-spanning order like she did, but that does not reflect any worse on their capacity for love. Let’s face it – love just doesn’t make good headlines. War, famine, and pestilence sell papers.

What you call a “Ridiculous quantification” (which is an insult to the very center of Christianity) is very important to us. When the sinful woman weeps at the feet of Jesus for forgiveness, he said that she “loved much.” The measuring in love is not a “ridiculous quantification.” How much love you have in the heart is what God judges you by. It is even silly to compare the measurement of love to the measurement of liquids. Humanism and secularism have alot to do with how we see religion.

It was not intended as an insult to Christianity. In your example, Jesus says the woman ‘loved much’ but he does not measure it, compare it to another’s love, or hold it against any kind of standard in any way. The fact that she loves is enough. It is the idea that one could make a bar graph saying Person A loves -----------this much--------------] while Person B only loves -----this much-----] that I find ridiculous.

 

[Image_of_God]

Well, belief in any god or gods is enough to make the label ‘atheist’ unstickable

As to non-religious people with as much sincere love for others as Gandhi or Teresa – they really are all around you. They just aren’t famous or distinctive. Gandhi was not famous for his love, but for his disobedience; and Teresa was not famous for her love but for the structure she built around it. Most people don’t have the ability to start a globe-spanning order like she did, but that does not reflect any worse on their capacity for love. Let’s face it – love just doesn’t make good headlines. War, famine, and pestilence sell papers.

It was not intended as an insult to Christianity. In your example, Jesus says the woman ‘loved much’ but he does not measure it, compare it to another’s love, or hold it against any kind of standard in any way. The fact that she loves is enough. It is the idea that one could make a bar graph saying Person A loves -----------this much--------------] while Person B only loves -----this much-----] that I find ridiculous.

And what you found ridiculous is what I am not saying. You are comparing what I said to the measure of liquids. Jesus said “the measure in which you measure will be given back to you.” A person’s joy in heaven is determined by how much they loved. A person’s sadness in hell is determined by how much they have sinned. If God did not measure how much love is in the human heart then how can he give back the person a just reward for there deeds, or how can he be all perfect in his vindication.

I will show you the whole thing:
Luke 7:41-44
"A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the dbts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more? Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he cancelled the greater debt.” And Jesus said to him, “You have judged rightly.”

Luke 7:47
“Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.”

You are right in that the love is not measured scientifically, but in order for God to return to the other a reward perfectly, the love in the heart must be measured.

And I have a question; where do you suppose all this love comes from?

 

[Image_of_God]

Yes.

Good, at it seems as though their arguements are imperfect right?

Evidence please.

I have been corrected.

Schliemann would not have discovered the city of Troy if it were not mentioned in Homer. Does this make all of Homer historical fact and literally true? I am a Hellenic Neopagan and even I do not believe that.

I think the historians know what they are doing. They know that Ur is the exact city that Abraham came from. They know that Jericho was where the Israelites fought. I am pretty sure they know what they are talking about.

How?

There is hardly enough evidence that the universe could start out of the blue and planets can form magically together without the intention of someone…

 

[Mirdath]

And what you found ridiculous is what I am not saying. You are comparing what I said to the measure of liquids. Jesus said “the measure in which you measure will be given back to you.” A person’s joy in heaven is determined by how much they loved. A person’s sadness in hell is determined by how much they have sinned. If God did not measure how much love is in the human heart then how can he give back the person a just reward for there deeds, or how can he be all perfect in his vindication.

Okay, if we’re talking about different things (as it seems) I won’t push it

I will show you the whole thing:
Luke 7:41-44
"A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the dbts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more? Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he cancelled the greater debt.” And Jesus said to him, “You have judged rightly.”

Now this is an interesting one (and a complete and utter sidetrack, I’m just interested in how you see it is all ). From the circumstances presented Peter finds it easy to decide. What if, unknown to him, the man who owed five hundred denarii had four hundred fifty set aside for the debt and simply couldn’t make the remaining fifty in time – and meanwhile the man who owed fifty had been robbed and owned nothing? In that case the man with the smaller debt might love the creditor more – whatever that means. I can’t think of any creditors I’ve loved

‘More’ and ‘less’ love seems to me to be at best a very fuzzy and heavily circumstance-dependent distinction.

And I have a question; where do you suppose all this love comes from?

From inside us. I believe in the innate good (or mostly-okayness) of the human spirit. Crazy, isn’t it?

 

[Image_of_God]

Okay, if we’re talking about different things (as it seems) I won’t push it

What are you talking about?

Now this is an interesting one (and a complete and utter sidetrack, I’m just interested in how you see it is all ). From the circumstances presented Peter finds it easy to decide. What if, unknown to him, the man who owed five hundred denarii had four hundred fifty set aside for the debt and simply couldn’t make the remaining fifty in time – and meanwhile the man who owed fifty had been robbed and owned nothing? In that case the man with the smaller debt might love the creditor more – whatever that means. I can’t think of any creditors I’ve loved

Jesus made the situation up and says “You have answered rightly” to Peter’s answer. I think Jesus knew what he meant. So the circumstances you bring up are invalid.

‘More’ and ‘less’ love seems to me to be at best a very fuzzy and heavily circumstance-dependent distinction.

From inside us. I believe in the innate good (or mostly-okayness) of the human spirit. Crazy, isn’t it?

Yes, Christians believe that, but in a different way.

 

[KarenNC]

A person’s joy in heaven is determined by how much they loved. A person’s sadness in hell is determined by how much they have sinned. If God did not measure how much love is in the human heart then how can he give back the person a just reward for there deeds, or how can he be all perfect in his vindication.

I will show you the whole thing:
Luke 7:41-44
"A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the dbts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more? Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he cancelled the greater debt.” And Jesus said to him, “You have judged rightly.”

Luke 7:47
“Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.”

So, by that argument, a person’s best strategy to gain the most love and hence the best position in heaven, is to sin as much as humanly possible, then ask for forgiveness at the last second possible, so that there will be the maximum amount of debt forgiven and maximum gain (joy) in heaven realized?

This doesn’t strike me as the theology I have heard preached most often in Christian churches. By that argument a mass murderer who repents at the last minute before being executed would have more joy in heaven that someone like Mother Teresa.

 

[Mirdath]

What are you talking about?

I think what we had there was a failure to communicate

Specifically on measuring love – looks like we weren’t on the same page, so hey, no point in arguing about different things

Jesus made the situation up and says “You have answered rightly” to Peter’s answer. I think Jesus knew what he meant. So the circumstances you bring up are invalid.

Thanks for the answer – I still wonder how it’d go if Jesus had a penchant for trick questions though

Yes, Christians believe that, but in a different way.

As I understand it, Christians hold that God is Love, and that all love between humans comes from that infinite source – and thus love without a religious element is not considered perfect, or even as perfect as humans are capable of reaching with faith as an element.

 

[KarenNC]

Good, at it seems as though their arguements are imperfect right?

Certainly I think so.

I have been corrected.

It wasn’t meant to be overkill. I didn’t see the other post until I had posted mine.

**I think the historians know what they are doing. They know that Ur is the exact city that Abraham came from. They know that Jericho was where the Israelites fought. I am pretty sure they know what they are talking about. **

I don’t have any argument that historians know what they are talking about. Using stories from ancient cultures as clues is a very valid way to approach research into the archaeology of those cultures. Sometimes it’s the only source for clues.

I simply argue that just because archaeologists find something existed that is spoken of in even a sacred story of a culture doesn’t therefore mean that every claim in that story is verifiable historical fact. Homer wrote of the Trojan War. Schliemann used those clues to find a city that is now believed to be Troy. That doesn’t mean that it is historical fact that a witch named Circe actually physically turned a bunch of sailors into pigs or that I expect there will be the skull of a Cyclops found anytime soon.

There is hardly enough evidence that the universe could start out of the blue and planets can form magically together without the intention of someone…

Ok, just for fun, let’s take that as a starting premise. “The universe was created by someone.” Do you believe the Big Bang theory then also proves that that someone was your Someone?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So, by that argument, a person’s best strategy to gain the most love and hence the best position in heaven, is to sin as much as humanly possible, then ask for forgiveness at the last second possible, so that there will be the maximum amount of debt forgiven and maximum gain (joy) in heaven realized?

No. This presumes that you have to be forgiven in order to experience joy. There are many things that people do to express love that do not involve forgiveness.

Besides that, the person who has been forgiven in such a way will not experience the greater love anyway-- and this presumes that they will really be forgiven on their death bed too.

If someone has gone through their entire life sinning with the specific intention of repenting on their death bed, they may in fact pass away before they can actually repent.

Likewise, if they say on their death bed, “Ok God, you can forgive me now-- I’ve had as much fun as I wanted” then there is no sincere repentence occuring and they will most likely not actually be forgiven by God because their heart is still not right before him.

KarenNC:

This doesn’t strike me as the theology I have heard preached most often in Christian churches.

That’s because it’s not the theology you have heard preached most often in Christian churches.

KarenNC:

By that argument a mass murderer who repents at the last minute before being executed would have more joy in heaven that someone like Mother Teresa.

No. If they really and truly repented, they would have great joy indeed. But not as great as those who have lovingly given of themselves without sinning-- especially those who have authentically served God all their lives. We are also blessed when God forgives the sins of others through us too-- just as much if not more than when God forgives us of our own personal sins.

 

[KarenNC]

We are also blessed when God forgives the sins of others through us too-- just as much if not more than when God forgives us of our own personal sins.

Could you expand on this?

Thanks