Gospel altered?

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I shared the original poster’s irritation when I heard this translation read at Mass.

As is often the case, the translation is a sort of compromise and cannot capture the full texture of the Greek word being used. As has been noted, there are at least two versions of the Latin translation struggling with the scope of this Greek word. In some versions the Latin reads “dilectus” and in others “electus.” When the Greek word is considered, both of these are well within the range of its meaning.

The Greek word in question is “eklelegmenos” and according to the Perseus library tools it does not appear in this form in any other ancient Greek source. One of the difficulties in translating it is that it is a compound of two parts, “ek” which means roughly “out,” and “legawzd.” This second part has two possible root meanings: (1) to gather, pick up or to choose; (2) to say, speak, call, boast etc.

To complicate things the word is either in the middle or in the passive voice. The passive voice is easier to translate, since we use it in English, but we do not have a middle voice and so its flavor is difficult to capture in translation. Roughly speaking it means that the actor being described is also an object of the action. So both “I did it to myself,” and “I did it for myself” would have the feel of the middle voice in Greek.

Finally, the two separate meanings for the second part of the word in question, take on different meanings when in the middle or passive voice. For example, in the middle voice the meanings include: to gather for oneself, to choose for oneself, to speak of oneself, to speak for oneself. The passive meanings include: to be chosen, to be counted, to be said. And one of the meanings is to boast.

Now the trick in translation is that all of these echoes and hints are in the Greek, and the Greek word “eklelegmenos” does not decide among them. It trails them all along in the background.

So it is fair to translate it as “chosen.” However, in English this is a pretty flat word. One could use “elected,” but that has all sorts of democratic baggage that would be misleading. One could twist the reader’s tongue and say “boasted-of.” One could use the colloquial “choice.” One could use the word “excellent,” which also has the connotation of competition, but it is more remote in the English usage, and this has the advantage of carrying a bit of the “middle voice” flavor, since one who excels, in a sense, chooses himself for prominence. Another appropriate translation would be “favored,” which also has the hint of a choice, and might reflect the middle voice in that the choice was made “for the Father.”

So, all of these translations would be “accurate” to a degree, but none would capture the full texture of the Greek word, which brings all of these echoes with it.

I do not think there is any reason to accept the NAB’s choice as cutting off the scope of the meaning of the text. Rather, the word “chosen” when read in this context should be expanded from its ordinary English usage and allowed to take on more of the background that the Latin and Greek versions bring to it.

All of this has to be done with an eye to the context and to the literal meaning of what the Father was saying: Clearly Jesus was not chosen from among other possible candidates; rather He is the Son of whom the Father chooses, boasts, brags, announces, and favors for Himself, both for the Father’s and for the Son’s self (beloved or excellent, respectively), which in the translation of the middle/passive form of this Greek word are indistinguishable. Far from being a dilution of Jesus’ unique status, this seems to me to be a literary miracle. One of many in the multiple forms of the Scriptures – the Holy Spirit sure can write!

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

To access the Greek text in the Perseus system go to perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0155:book=Luke:chapter=9:verse=1
 
I shared the original poster’s irritation when I heard this translation read at Mass.

As is often the case, the translation is a sort of compromise and cannot capture the full texture of the Greek word being used. As has been noted, there are at least two versions of the Latin translation struggling with the scope of this Greek word. In some versions the Latin reads “dilectus” and in others “electus.” When the Greek word is considered, both of these are well within the range of its meaning.

The Greek word in question is “eklelegmenos” and according to the Perseus library tools it does not appear in this form in any other ancient Greek source. One of the difficulties in translating it is that it is a compound of two parts, “ek” which means roughly “out,” and “legawzd.” This second part has two possible root meanings: (1) to gather, pick up or to choose; (2) to say, speak, call, boast etc.

To complicate things the word is either in the middle or in the passive voice. The passive voice is easier to translate, since we use it in English, but we do not have a middle voice and so its flavor is difficult to capture in translation. Roughly speaking it means that the actor being described is also an object of the action. So both “I did it to myself,” and “I did it for myself” would have the feel of the middle voice in Greek.

Finally, the two separate meanings for the second part of the word in question, take on different meanings when in the middle or passive voice. For example, in the middle voice the meanings include: to gather for oneself, to choose for oneself, to speak of oneself, to speak for oneself. The passive meanings include: to be chosen, to be counted, to be said. And one of the meanings is to boast.

Now the trick in translation is that all of these echoes and hints are in the Greek, and the Greek word “eklelegmenos” does not decide among them. It trails them all along in the background.

So it is fair to translate it as “chosen.” However, in English this is a pretty flat word. One could use “elected,” but that has all sorts of democratic baggage that would be misleading. One could twist the reader’s tongue and say “boasted-of.” One could use the colloquial “choice.” One could use the word “excellent,” which also has the connotation of competition, but it is more remote in the English usage, and this has the advantage of carrying a bit of the “middle voice” flavor, since one who excels, in a sense, chooses himself for prominence. Another appropriate translation would be “favored,” which also has the hint of a choice, and might reflect the middle voice in that the choice was made “for the Father.”

So, all of these translations would be “accurate” to a degree, but none would capture the full texture of the Greek word, which brings all of these echoes with it.

I do not think there is any reason to accept the NAB’s choice as cutting off the scope of the meaning of the text. Rather, the word “chosen” when read in this context should be expanded from its ordinary English usage and allowed to take on more of the background that the Latin and Greek versions bring to it.

All of this has to be done with an eye to the context and to the literal meaning of what the Father was saying: Clearly Jesus was not chosen from among other possible candidates; rather He is the Son of whom the Father chooses, boasts, brags, announces, and favors for Himself, both for the Father’s and for the Son’s self (beloved or excellent, respectively), which in the translation of the middle/passive form of this Greek word are indistinguishable. Far from being a dilution of Jesus’ unique status, this seems to me to be a literary miracle. One of many in the multiple forms of the Scriptures – the Holy Spirit sure can write!

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

To access the Greek text in the Perseus system go to perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0155:book=Luke:chapter=9:verse=1
The NAB’s “reinterpretations” are foremostly to make simpler the scriptures.

Your treatise above supplies an explanation, albeit, longwinded (no offense, please). This contradicts its ostensible purpose.

As a layman “…Beloved Son…” has sufficed for me all of my life. Undoubtedly this holds true for many others as well. We do not need to be Greek scholars to hear the Word of God. Before Vatican 2, the Roman Missal had the Gospels in BOTH Latin and English. The lefthand page was Latin and the righthand, English…a virtual verbatim as we read along at the Mass.

Somehow, my gut feeling tells me it has the appearance of tampering with God’s word. “…Beloved Son…” has been the interpretation for well over a thousand years and to retranslate seems scornful of what has been base acceptance over time.
 
Genesis: Ch. 3: v. 15. Douay-Rheims.

(Speaking to the serpent/temptor) “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

The NAB changed the gender to “His”.

This is another change that makes one wonder why.

This passage alludes to a Redeemer and His Mother. “Her seed” is Jesus." And she has dominion over satan.

The popular statue of Our Lady of Grace cherished by generations is a depiction of the crushing of the head of the serpent.

Does anyone know who was given license to make that gender reference and why?
 
Who is writing his own lectionary? Me?

I am reading from the Douay-Rheims bible NOT writing my own lectionary. Am I in conflict with the Church? I don’t think so! Submit to authority of bishops? Only the Pope is infallible…bishops are not.

A bishop here is quoted, “It is permissible to admit homosexuals into seminary as long as they are celibate.”

Do I submit to that nonsense? Should I accept this as infallible?
where did we say accept every casual statement of every bishop as infallible? the national conference of bishops acting together does have the authority to decide which scriptural translations are to be used for the lectionary in their country (subject of course the translation first being approved by the Vatican). You raised an issue with the lectionary, not with the teachings of an individual bishop, so let’s stick with that.
 
Genesis: Ch. 3: v. 15. Douay-Rheims.

(Speaking to the serpent/temptor) “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

The NAB changed the gender to “His”.

This is another change that makes one wonder why.

This passage alludes to a Redeemer and His Mother. “Her seed” is Jesus." And she has dominion over satan.

The popular statue of Our Lady of Grace cherished by generations is a depiction of the crushing of the head of the serpent.

Does anyone know who was given license to make that gender reference and why?
From the Haydock commentary, “Ver. 15. She shall crush. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz. the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. (Challoner) — The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa instead of ipsum; and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus. Whether the Jewish editions ought to have more weight with Christians, or whether all the other manuscripts conspire against this reading, let others inquire. The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, which now moves the indignation of Protestants so much, as if we intended by it to give any divine honour to the blessed Virgin. We believe, however, with St. Epiphanius, that “it is no less criminal to vilify the holy Virgin, than to glorify her above measure.” We know that all the power of the mother of God is derived from the merits of her Son. We are no otherwise concerned about the retaining of ipsa, she, in this place, that in as much as we have yet no certain reason to suspect its being genuine. **As some words have been corrected in the Vulgate since the Council of Trent by Sixtus V. and others, by Clement VIII. so, if, upon stricter search, it be found that it, and not she, is the true reading, we shall not hesitate to admit the correction: but we must wait in the mean time respectfully, till our superiors determine. **(Haydock) Kemnitzius certainly advanced a step too far, when he said that all the ancient fathers read ipsum. Victor, Avitus, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, &c. mentioned in the Douay Bible, will convict him of falsehood. Christ crushed the serpent’s head by his death, suffering himself to be wounded in the heel. His blessed mother crushed him likewise, by her co-operation in the mystery of the Incarnation; and by rejecting, with horror, the very first suggestions of the enemy, to commit even the smallest sin. (St. Bernard, ser. 2, on Missus est.) “We crush,” says St. Gregory, Mor. 1. 38, “the serpent’s head, when we extirpate from our heart the beginnings of temptation, and then he lays snares for our heel, because he opposes the end of a good action with greater craft and power.” The serpent may hiss and threaten; he cannot hurt, if we resist him. (Haydock)”

Apparently, the translators changed the wording because “his” is actually correct.
 
The NAB’s “reinterpretations” are foremostly to make simpler the scriptures.

Your treatise above supplies an explanation, albeit, longwinded (no offense, please). This contradicts its ostensible purpose.

As a layman “…Beloved Son…” has sufficed for me all of my life. Undoubtedly this holds true for many others as well. We do not need to be Greek scholars to hear the Word of God. Before Vatican 2, the Roman Missal had the Gospels in BOTH Latin and English. The lefthand page was Latin and the righthand, English…a virtual verbatim as we read along at the Mass.

Somehow, my gut feeling tells me it has the appearance of tampering with God’s word. “…Beloved Son…” has been the interpretation for well over a thousand years and to retranslate seems scornful of what has been base acceptance over time.
Dear John:

I agree that the new translations sometimes seem un-necessarily inconsistent with the broad scope of the Practice of the Faith. For example the translator’s reticence to use the word “saint,” when it clearly makes sense in the text, seems to work against an overall understanding of the Faith as it is lived in the Church.

However, I think in choosing the NAB translation one of the goals of the American Bishops may have been to cause people to look outside of their accustomed understandings and to prompt them to look at some of the richness of the texts. Certainly I would not have looked at the richness of this one Greek word, if I had not been knocked slightly off balance by the unaccustomed translation when I heard it.

By the way, just to show that I was not as “longwinded” as I could have been, I did not include this tidbit in my previous post:

The Greek text reads:
ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο εκλελεγμενος αυτου ακουετε

If this is rendered directly, as an unsophisticated Greek ear might have heard it, it reads:
“This is my Son the Chosen One; listen to him.”

If that is what the Greek speaking Church heard, then it was a direct declaration of Jesus as the Messiah.

All that said, I agree with you “Beloved Son” is an accurate and sufficient translation. In fact, I think it is what we have to take “chosen Son” to mean.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
where did we say accept every casual statement of every bishop as infallible? the national conference of bishops acting together does have the authority to decide which scriptural translations are to be used for the lectionary in their country (subject of course the translation first being approved by the Vatican). You raised an issue with the lectionary, not with the teachings of an individual bishop, so let’s stick with that.
You’re right. I digressed. There are issues with the lectionary in multiple places. It collides head-on with Douay-Rheims.

I, for one, would NOT keep a New American Bible in my home. That is my prerogative and that does NOT make me an apostate. Even a collection of bishops can err.

But I think I’ll go on to another thread since there are other issues within the Church desperately in need of reparation.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Dear John:

I agree that the new translations sometimes seem un-necessarily inconsistent with the broad scope of the Practice of the Faith. For example the translator’s reticence to use the word “saint,” when it clearly makes sense in the text, seems to work against an overall understanding of the Faith as it is lived in the Church.

However, I think in choosing the NAB translation one of the goals of the American Bishops may have been to cause people to look outside of their accustomed understandings and to prompt them to look at some of the richness of the texts. Certainly I would not have looked at the richness of this one Greek word, if I had not been knocked slightly off balance by the unaccustomed translation when I heard it.

By the way, just to show that I was not as “longwinded” as I could have been, I did not include this tidbit in my previous post:

The Greek text reads:
ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο εκλελεγμενος αυτου ακουετε

If this is rendered directly, as an unsophisticated Greek ear might have heard it, it reads:
“This is my Son the Chosen One; listen to him.”

If that is what the Greek speaking Church heard, then it was a direct declaration of Jesus as the Messiah.

All that said, I agree with you “Beloved Son” is an accurate and sufficient translation. In fact, I think it is what we have to take “chosen Son” to mean.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
Thank you. However the word “Chosen” does cause consternation to all that cling to every word of God. It’s is only natural to be taken aback when the flow of words over years suddenly has a sort of “detour.”

That was NOT necessary (“Chosen,” that is). Over time though, “Chosen” will mean just what it implies (picked from a cadre of candidates) when time erodes away memories of “Beloved.” A new generation will be ignorant of what was exact scripture for over a thousand years; never knowing what has been substituted.

Maybe we are all called to be alert and attentive lest we be weakened.
 
time erodes away memories of “Beloved.” A new generation will be ignorant of what was exact scripture for over a thousand years; never knowing what has been substituted.
In this case, they will remain aware of “Beloved Son”. All they have to do is read Matthew’s account of the transfiguration instead of Luke’s. In Mat, the Greek reads agapetos. It is in Luke that it reads eklelegmenos. Likely, they will find it hard to remember which gospel says which, as do I. I am more inclined to recall the word “beloved” since it is used at the Baptism of Jesus in each account, and also in 2Pet and Mark for the Transfiguration, so I hear it by far the most often.

It doesn’t bother me if they use different English words to help cue me in on the fact that the Greek underneath has different words. This is helpful to the person who can’t read Greek. That way they can have a hint that the Greek is different there and investigate why.
 
The NAB has “Chosen” (Luke 9) but not Douray-Rheims.

“Chosen” waters down the Christ’s divinity to a sort of “selection” from a pool of other men. The Apostle’s Creed has Jesus and the Father as ONE; the same essence (God from God…ONE in Being with the Father). “Chosen” is a poor choice of a word in the NAB.

“Beloved” is plainly used here as an adjective and NOT a noun.

NAB erred on this one.
GreekBible.com has it right.

καὶ φωνὴ ἐγένετο ἐκ τῆς νεφέλης λέγουσα, Οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἐκλελεγμένος, αὐτοῦ ἀκούετε.
 
GreekBible.com has it right.

καὶ φωνὴ ἐγένετο ἐκ τῆς νεφέλης λέγουσα, Οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἐκλελεγμένος, αὐτοῦ ἀκούετε.
What does it say in Luke 9 when we read that passage in Latin? Does it say, “Chosen?”
 
What does it say in Luke 9 when we read that passage in Latin? Does it say, “Chosen?”
It says electus. There are parallel passages (of the Transfiguration) in Mat and Mark, where the Latin says *dilectus instead. *Also, in 2Pet 1:17, it uses *dilectus *as well. This appears to mirror the situation as I described in the Greek.

This is as per the Nova Vulgata.
 
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