Gospel for Today---23rd Sunday

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Todays Gospel—
Great crowds were traveling with Jesus,
and he turned and addressed them,
“If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters,
and even his own life,
he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me
cannot be my disciple.
Which of you wishing to construct a tower
does not first sit down and calculate the cost
to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation
and finding himself unable to finish the work
the onlookers should laugh at him and say,
‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down
and decide whether with ten thousand troops
he can successfully oppose another king
advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
But if not, while he is still far away,
he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.
In the same way,
anyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions
cannot be my disciple.”
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I found this Gospel confusing. It seems to be talking of 2 people making decisions or discerning. The tower builder and the king—both must carefully weigh their decisions. To build or not to build and then to go to war, or not to go to war. Then the Gospel states–“In the same way…”

This final sentence seems odd to me when it is coupled with the two people making decisions. Are we to weigh the risks of following Jesus? Or weigh the risks of not following Jesus? Usually Jesus says, paraphasing, you “must” take up your cross etc… He does not say you must weigh the risks of taking up the cross or not taking up the cross. So why is the final sentence coupled with the “story” of two people discerning and discerning about two matters in which there is no obvious right or wrong decision?

The homily I heard today did not really answer this question for me. Maybe others heard homilies that addressed my question.
 
Journeyman,

I think the message is “Surrender!” to God.

Tower builders in scripture (Babel) did not accomplish their goal in the face of God and neither di dany king would was at odds with God (the King with 20,000 troops). Towers were usually fortifications for war.

Better to make peace with God, now, while you can. Better to be on God’s side and in His army or in His tower than in one of our own. Throw in everything you have with God.

That is my take anyway.

Emmaus
 
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Journeyman:
Todays Gospel—

I found this Gospel confusing. It seems to be talking of 2 people making decisions or discerning. The tower builder and the king—both must carefully weigh their decisions. To build or not to build and then to go to war, or not to go to war. Then the Gospel states–“In the same way…”

This final sentence seems odd to me when it is coupled with the two people making decisions. Are we to weigh the risks of following Jesus? Or weigh the risks of not following Jesus? Usually Jesus says, paraphasing, you “must” take up your cross etc… He does not say you must weigh the risks of taking up the cross or not taking up the cross. So why is the final sentence coupled with the “story” of two people discerning and discerning about two matters in which there is no obvious right or wrong decision?

The homily I heard today did not really answer this question for me. Maybe others heard homilies that addressed my question.
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I think Jesus is calling for complete abandonment. Taking up the Cross means it’s going to cost us everything. The builder and the king must be prudent. It’s all the more prudent to consider the meaning of the Cross. Perhaps, a bit like marriage, we’re called to give 100%. A lot like dying to self and living for the other. We may do it little by little but to enter heaven the old man must die.
 
For the readings of the 23rd. Sunday, our pastor said during his homily that it is easy to give lip service to being a Christian, but Jesus is calling on us to ACT upon our beliefs.

Talk is cheap was the point he was making to us.
 
The homily I heard addressed the “hate” of family. It was expained by first indicating the statement’s need to be understood in context. That context being the authors intent of revealing a contrast. The bottom line being that our love for God should be so great, that in comparison, our care for our family would look like hate.
 
Here is the commentary on these verses from the Navarre Bible Commentary on Luke:
28-35. Our Lord uses different examples to show that if mere human
prudence means that a person should try to work out in advance the
risks he may run, with all the more reason should a Christian embrace
the cross voluntarily and generously, because there is no other way he
can follow Jesus Christ. “`Quia hic homo coepit aedificare et non
potuit consummare! He started to build and was unable to finish!’ A
sad commentary which, if you don’t want, need be made about you: for
you possess everything necessary to crown the edifice of your
sanctification–the grace of God and your own will.” ([St] J. Escriva, “The
Way”, 324).
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  1. Earlier our Lord spoke about “hating” one’s parents and one’s very
    life; now He equally vigorously requires us to be completely detached
    from possessions. This verse is a direct application of the two
    foregoing parables: just as a king is imprudent if he goes to war with
    an inadequate army, so anyone is foolish who thinks he can follow our
    Lord without renouncing all his possessions. This renunciation should
    really bite: our heart has to be unencumbered by anything material if
    we are able to follow in our Lord’s footsteps. The reason is, as He
    tells us later on, that it is impossible to “serve God and Mammon”
    (Luke 16:13). Not infrequently our Lord asks a person to practice
    total, voluntary poverty; and He asks everyone to practice genuine
    detachment and generosity in the use of material things. If a
    Christian has to be ready to give up even life itself, with all the
    more reason should he renounce possessions: If you are a man of God,
    you will seek to despise riches as intensely as men of the world seek
    to possess them" ([St] J. Escriva, “The Way”, 633). See the note on Luke
    12:33-34.
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Besides, for a soul to become filled with God it must first be emptied
of everything that could be an obstacle to God’s indwelling: “The
doctrine that the Son of God came to teach was contempt for all things
in order to receive as a reward the Spirit of God in himself. For, as
long as the soul does not reject all things, it has no capacity to
receive the Spirit of God in pure transformation” (St. John of the
Cross, “Ascent of Mount Carmel”, Book 1, Chapter 5, 2).
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The beginning words to this gospel are worth some attention.

“Great crowds were traveling with Jesus,
and he turned and addressed them”,

One homily I heard (or perhaps read) noted that the “turn” mentioned is Jesus taking a look at the crowd that is following him, wondering if they really know where they will end up if they follow him, and he is giving them a warning about what a disciple who is really going to follow him must be prepared to do.

Are you prepared to give up your job, a close relationship, a well established habit, any of which may get in the way of following Jesus as completely as Peter, James, John, etc. were following him?

I don’t think Jesus expects (then or now) that everyone who hears the word and finds it meaningful, will in fact drop everything to go and preach that word, following in his footsteps. Many in this crowd were probably thinking “Gee this guy is really cool, and maybe I’ll tag along and see where he ends up.” Jesus was trying to temper their interest with a reality check. Were they really strong enough to go the distance? They should ask themselves that before they started.

I believe we are all called to seek God’s kindgom in our lives. Perhaps we are not all called to totally focus our lives on mission and preaching as Peter and company were.

I think the two parables actually refer to two ends of a spectrum of sorts. The first one about building a tower means we should consider the strength and dedication needed to be totally devoted to the cause of God’s kingdom and judge for ourselves if we really have what it takes.

The second I take to be telling us that God’s kingdom will eventually come upon us whether we devote our lives to it or not and if we don’t want to give up everything in our lives when it comes, we should start trying to make at least some measure of peace with it starting right now.

-Jim
 
Have all your tools and materials ready. Be prepared. Know what you’re getting into because if you’re not ready to go 110%, then you need not bother going at all. Following Christ isn’t a hobby—it’s a full-time job.
 
I think the point of these sayings is: Is there anything in your life (family, possessions, etc.), including your life itself, that you would not be willing to be separated from, if called to, in order to be a faithful Christian?

Anyway, that’s my :twocents: .
 
In this gospel ‘hate’ means renounce, but it is worded hate to strongly define how you are to follow Christ Jesus, you must be prepared to renounce everything if need be to follow Him, and this may be hard at times and this is when we bear the cross of our renouncing everything for His name, so assess you defenses and our weakness and follow renouncing all if necessary and follow the commandement of love God first if you are to be a disciple of Christ.

God Bless you and much peace and love to you xx
 
Just to add to the excellent discussion above, our pastor made a very good point. When Christ teaches us in this manner (through parables, etc.), the last sentence always brings us back to main point of the teaching. Thus, all the examples he gave are designed to show us that we must renounce everything in order to follow him.
 
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Teresa9:
In this gospel ‘hate’ means renounce, but it is worded hate to strongly define how you are to follow Christ Jesus, you must be prepared to renounce everything if need be to follow Him, and this may be hard at times and this is when we bear the cross of our renouncing everything for His name, so assess you defenses and our weakness and follow renouncing all if necessary and follow the commandement of love God first if you are to be a disciple of Christ.

God Bless you and much peace and love to you xx
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Hi Teresa, thanks for posting this, it certainly helps me in making sense of the scripture. I have also heard that in the Bible, “hate” can also be used to denote preference or priority instead of actual hatred. An example of this is found in Deuteronomy 21:15-17:
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and the other hated, and they have had children by him, and the son of the hated be the firstborn, 16 and he meaneth to divide his substance among his sons: he may not make the son of the beloved the firstborn, and prefer him before the son of the hated. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, and shall give him a double portion of all he hath: for this is the first of his children, and to him are due the first birthrights. (DRV)
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From what I’ve read (I’m no Biblical scholar), the terms beloved and hated refer to preference or rank, not of emotional states. I guess it would make no sense to refer to a wife as hated (emotionally).

I hope this might help people in understanding some of the different ways “hate” is used in the bible. It also demostrates that the ways words and expressions were used when the Bible was written may be different than the way we use them today.
 
The context “If anyone comes to me” implies that Jesus is saying that when we come to Him we must not come to Him with any compromise whereby we would put others ahead of Him. Family members can pressure people not to follow Jesus, so Jesus is telling people not to come to Him unless you are sure you can resist pressure from others not to follow Him. The common connotation for the word hate that we have today, may not be the same connotation that Jesus meant it as. In fact, a follower of Jesus will love his family more unselfishly and in fact be a better father, mother, brother, sister, etc.

Jesus refers to the tower and the battle as examples of undertakings. Just as you must make sure you are prepared to follow through on projects, you must make sure you are prepared to persevere in following Him. Jesus is saying to make sure that you love Him more than family who might pressure you not to follow Him. He is informing people that He does not want temporary followers. He is informing people that following Him is a lifelong commitment and there is no turning back.

See also His saying about turning your back on your family and not looking back once you have taken to the plow.

The pressure not to become Christian can be tremendous - never think lightly of it. Many of us don’t experience it, because we are born into Christian families. Imagine if your family was not Christian, the pressure and rejection you might experience if you became Christian. Jesus is saying, only if you know you can handle it, then you are ready (analogy: start the tower or go to battle because you know you can finish).

Greg
 
i would add to the discussion, but anything i said would be either redundant or superfluous. you all have covered the ground nicely. good job. 🙂
 
I think the word “hate” is a mistranslation. Otherwise this passage contradicts the Fourth Commndment and implies that Jesus hated his own mother. The parrell passage gives the correct translation of “love less”.

The idea that the word “hate” may have been used differently in other parts of the Bible is irrevelent.

This is one of those translations that need to be corrected just as 'lead us not into temptation" has been corrected to “put us not to the test”.
 
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