Gospel mass

[Don9of11]

I had top laugh. What is “our music” If you are talking about old world chants, then you really need to expand see were the Church is today. Our music is what ever the music of the country and culture were the Church exist.

Whenever you mention “old” music everyone thinks of chants, I’m sure why. No, I am not talking about chants. I am talking about traditional Catholic hymns, like: Ave Verum, To Jesus Heart All Burning, O Sacred Heart O Love Divine, O Cor Amoris, Sweet Sacrament Divine, Veni Jesu Amor Mi, Mother Dearest Mother Fairest, Mother Dear O Pray For Me. The list could go on because there are hundreds of hymns like this that we don’t sing anymore.

This is “our music” isn’t it? When was the last time you sang any of these or even heard of them? So, my point was that we shouldn’t be introducing gospel hymns, as much as I would like to sing some of them, until we bring back those hymns I mentioned above; “our music”.

 

[CUAGRAD08]

Since when is Gregorian Chant not appropriate for the Mass? Every Pope has lauded its usage in the Sacred Liturgy.

Since Gregorian Chant is a style and not a specific group of songs, it too can be made very inappropriate. Gregorian Chant is the way that the notes of those singing com together. It is made up of specific notes sung in specific patterns. As long as it is sung in the correct tones and notes even a string of expletives is Gregorian Chant. And I am sure that we can all agree that would be HIGHLY inappropriate for any liturgical service

 

[malphono]

The adaptation of musical styles from various cultures for liturgical use is nothing new. Look at the famous Missa Luba as an example.

I would think that if someone composed a “Mass” (in the musical sense - meaning the texts of the Ordinary) in Gospel style, it would be appropriate. As with any other style, its effective use would depend on the circumstances and the congregation.

Just my :twocents:

 

[Sarabande]

Since Gregorian Chant is a style and not a specific group of songs, it too can be made very inappropriate. Gregorian Chant is the way that the notes of those singing com together. It is made up of specific notes sung in specific patterns. As long as it is sung in the correct tones and notes even a string of expletives is Gregorian Chant. And I am sure that we can all agree that would be HIGHLY inappropriate for any liturgical service

None of the chants used for Mass has ever been considered inappropriate. Sure, someone can be smart and add a string of expletives to a particular chant style to make fun of it (There are various forms of chant for different religions), although I don’t know of any published Gregorian chant which has secular text. Whenever a person refers specifically to Gregorian Chant, they are meaning the chants used at Mass - not something some smartaleck might have done.

 

[FAB]

The TLM wasn’t approved - as in it was replaced and then brought back. It never left. Vernacular Mass was approved. TLM has ALWAYS been acceptable.

Don’t get caught up in samantics, it glosses over the point I was making. I am away of the history of the TLM .
Peace, FAB

 

[FAB]

That music has Protestant all over it!. If they can’t offer the EF Mass, there is absolutely no place for another form of the OF Mass (Life Teen, Gospel, Techno etcc).

There are Catholic Gospel Hymns approved by the USCCB and are sung across the country every week, There is nothing Protestant about most of them

Peace,
FAB

 

[CUAGRAD08]

None of the chants used for Mass has ever been considered inappropriate. Sure, someone can be smart and add a string of expletives to a particular chant style to make fun of it (There are various forms of chant for different religions), although I don’t know of any published Gregorian chant which has secular text. Whenever a person refers specifically to Gregorian Chant, they are meaning the chants used at Mass - not something some smartaleck might have done.

First: so what you are referring to are specific Mass settings that use Gregorian Chant, not Gregorian Chant itself. Like I said before, Gregorian Chant is a style of music and singing. It would be like bluegrass, it is a specific style of music that falls in a broader category of music. (SAT time: __________ is to chant as bluegrass is to country.) I have heard secular lyrics done in the style of Gregorian Chant, it does exist. (Music majors at University music programs do it quite often because it is hard to get the words to fit just right and shows a real command of the music.) The style can be used to sing many things and anything that is desired. It is for this reason that the USCCB (or the other appropriate Conference for those in other countries) approves music (and if they deem necessary specific songs) before use in Mass. (All the Hymnals that we in the United States use have been approved by the Bishops.)

If you are referring to Mass settings in Gregorian Chant you should state that, since it is a wildly different statement than saying Gregorian Chant. You can not expect that everyone on this forum can read you mind. I get yelled at quite often because I used the term Eucharistic Minister to refer to Extraordinary ministers and assumed everyone would know who I was talking about (as they all did) but was chastised because I did not use term Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Same situation.

Second: Mass settings of Gregorian Chant can be inappropriate for certain liturgies. One such liturgy might be for Charismatic Renewal which would often favor differing types of music that have a higher tempo. It would often be inappropriate for a lifeteen Mass. As was once stated in a Msgr. Kevin Irwin class: “The music style has to reflect the mass itself.” Mass done in Latin would normal not warrant a jazz band not would it be appropriate. In the same way Mass done for Children should normally not have Gregorian Chant. (Gregorian Chant has been scientifically proven to slow and relax the body and therefore can cause young ones to fall asleep and is used in some Nurseries in the country as a way to calm the newborn babies.)

Btw: the answer to the above SAT question is … Gregorian Chant.

 

[Sarabande]

First: so what you are referring to are specific Mass settings that use Gregorian Chant, not Gregorian Chant itself. Like I said before, Gregorian Chant is a style of music and singing. It would be like bluegrass, it is a specific style of music that falls in a broader category of music. (SAT time: __________ is to chant as bluegrass is to country.)

I assume you have some knowledge and intellect on the subject when I continue on with this discussion and would expect the same courtesy in return, as mentioning of “SAT time” is a bit silly and would only be relevant if it is referring to other high school students or college students who may still find it important. I’m a professional classically trained musician who did part of my training at the Mozarteum conservatory in Salzburg. I’ve been fortunate and blessed to have performed in both Europe and the U.S. in secular venues because of where I trained and who I worked with (another blessing through God and through my hard work, having worked and studied with some internationally respected musicians and coaches), and have worked extensively in sacred music within liturgy especially with people who have been well trained in it. So I am very aware of music in general and have a good handle on music history as well as Church music history. I know what Gregorian Chant is and I am also aware of other forms of chant and how it is used. I wouldn’t usually get my credentials out like this, but it appears that you may have read me as someone who didn’t know what I was talking about.

I have heard secular lyrics done in the style of Gregorian Chant, it does exist. (Music majors at University music programs do it quite often because it is hard to get the words to fit just right and shows a real command of the music.)

You may have heard people like your music students or even former/current classmates set secular text to Gregorian chant as an exercise, but are they published? If you can show me published music set to Gregorian Chant style, then great, I will grant you that. That said, if there is any, the majority of my colleagues and musician friends would most likely not know about it. No published work that I know of exists and I buy a lot of sheet music, as well as own about 600+ cds of music from all various centuries and styles of music.

The style can be used to sing many things and anything that is desired.

Yes, it can be, but again, I know of no published and used versions set to it either than sacred text, besides that of smartalecks I know who was joking around (such as former classmates of mine in music programs or just friends sitting around having fun singing organum - which as you probably know, is something classically trained musicians especially in church music like to do for fun. My husband and I do it all the time with our friends - and trying to be like PDQ Bach) and those music majors which you spoke of who have done it for exercises. Various forms of chant, the Gregorian style included, has been used mainly as a musical source of prayer and worship. I assume that you know this as well, as you appear to have some knowledge or may even have majored in it?

It is for this reason that the USCCB (or the other appropriate Conference for those in other countries) approves music (and if they deem necessary specific songs) before use in Mass. (All the Hymnals that we in the United States use have been approved by the Bishops.)

This is something most people involved in music liturgy know.

If you are referring to Mass settings in Gregorian Chant you should state that, since it is a wildly different statement than saying Gregorian Chant. You can not expect that everyone on this forum can read you mind. I get yelled at quite often because I used the term Eucharistic Minister to refer to Extraordinary ministers and assumed everyone would know who I was talking about (as they all did) but was chastised because I did not use term Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Same situation.

It’s really not the same situation. If it were, then the Church, herself, as well as our Holy Father and previous Popes before him, would not just refer to it as “Gregorian Chant” in various documents. When it is discussed or written about, it is almost always referred to as just Gregorian Chant. You are the first person from all the colleagues and non-musicians I know and worked with who would even think that when the term “Gregorian Chant” was used, it could mean more than just what is used at Mass or as Sacred music. This is even in regards to non-Catholics. When you mention Gregorian Chant, they immediately assume sacred music or even music used in the Catholic mass. EM and EMHC is a different situation because they are two distinct things, are referred to both in different situations, writings and discussions, and that is why many people do chastise or correct those who use the wrong terminology.

That said, if you are scrupulous about the usage of “Gregorian Chant”, then by all means, make the distinction for your own peace of mind. I have nothing against that, but to nitpick on others is a waste of energy when most people don’t think this way with this kind of scrupulosity.

 

[Sarabande]

Second: Mass settings of Gregorian Chant can be inappropriate for certain liturgies. One such liturgy might be for Charismatic Renewal which would often favor differing types of music that have a higher tempo.

I’ve only been to one Charismatic Renewal liturgy back in college and based on what was heard there, it is true that chant would most likely not be used. At the same time, the chant itself is not “inappropriate” since it is deemed appropriate for Mass by the Church. I can see that this can easily become a game of semantics with the word “inappropriate”. So, perhaps the better word to use is “permitted” or “not permitted” by the Church.

It would often be inappropriate for a lifeteen Mass. As was once stated in a Msgr. Kevin Irwin class: “The music style has to reflect the mass itself.” Mass done in Latin would normal not warrant a jazz band not would it be appropriate. In the same way Mass done for Children should normally not have Gregorian Chant.

Although, the children I taught actually really enjoyed doing chant and singing it and would ask me often if we could practice chant at our choir rehearsals when I taught music at a Catholic school. So, that is really a matter of opinion and I respect that opinion, although I would say that it is important to teach Catholic children these things in order to help them learn about their liturgical music heritage.

In regards to having a jazz band for mass, many people I know who are very knowledgable in liturgy would not agree that the form of jazz should be used during mass at all because the style itself is too secular in nature and has not or cannot be refined enough to be “permitted” for a mass setting. At the same time, I am aware of certain parishes which incorporate a mass which uses jazz music. They are usually advertised in the parish bulletins as the “jazz mass”. In my diocese, though, the director of worship for the entire diocese would not permit it. He has spent many years in Rome prior to coming back to the States to take this position, and is very knowledgeble and intelligent on these matters.

(Gregorian Chant has been scientifically proven to slow and relax the body and therefore can cause young ones to fall asleep and is used in some Nurseries in the country as a way to calm the newborn babies.)

Not surprised about that as I have used recordings of various chants from certain rites to place me in a more meditative and prayerful mood.

Anyway, welcome to the boards and happy posting.

 

[kleine_katerine]

Hmm…I appreciate all of your points, given me a lot to think about. I think that we should wait a while longer before having the gospel mass. Do more concerts, guage the parish opinion. Like I said, not everyone is open to the idea.

Oh, most of the gospel music we sing are alternative versions of the normal hymns. I don’t know then if we’d have to get them approved……glad I’m not the one organising this really. I assume our bishop would be consulted first, he seems like a nice guy, he’d probably come!

Thanks again for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless

 

[benedictgal]

Hmm…I appreciate all of your points, given me a lot to think about. I think that we should wait a while longer before having the gospel mass. Do more concerts, guage the parish opinion. Like I said, not everyone is open to the idea.

Oh, most of the gospel music we sing are alternative versions of the normal hymns. I don’t know then if we’d have to get them approved……glad I’m not the one organising this really. I assume our bishop would be consulted first, he seems like a nice guy, he’d probably come!

Thanks again for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless

I woudl invite you to carefully read what Pope Benedict XVI noted in Sacramentum Caritatis regarding the matter of music in the Mass. He notes that:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Incidentally, the last statement that the Holy Father makes (the one concerning Gregorian Chant) pretty much negates statements in this thread made by Oh Malley that noted that not all Gregorian Chant was proper for the Mass. Pope Benedict clearly stated the contrary.