Grace and Free Will

[nfinke]

This concept has always been the most troubling for me in my Catholic faith, so hopefully I am just not understanding it fully.

The most famous statement of the concept in the Bible is I believe John 14:6 where Christ says “No one comes to the Father except through me.” This idea that it isnt possible to come to God without His grace.

I guess the problem is with what it means to “come to the Father”. If that simply means getting to heaven, then i guess I agree, since we need grace to heal our souls damaged by the fall.

I have heard people explain this concept by saying that every good act we commit is only through the grace of God. This really seems to undercut the idea of free will, seeing as our choice to love God doesnt really seem meaningful if we can only do so with His help. Not to mention if we are obviously responsible for any evil act we commit since we deserve punishment, only being able to do good with additional help from God makes it seem like we arent fallen, but totally depraved of any goodness of our own, which Im not totally sure, but I think is a heresy, or close to one.

I know that all good things come from God, but I was always under the impression that my will came from God, and I came from God, which allowed me to choose to do good, or to choose to misuse the fundamentally good gift of my will to do wrong.

Not sure how on topic that was, but can anyone help me out? Am I understanding this right?

 

[Theban]

The way I always interpreted this is that the opportunity to do good work is given to us as a grace from God, and all we do is respond to Him.

For example, I once ran into two old men on a path in the woods, one of which was in a wheelchair. They were a bit trapped, because they needed to cross a bridge over a small trench, and that bridge was too narrow for the wheelchair. However, I came along, and being young and fit I was able to carry half the chair while walking in the trench and help him across.

But how much of this is to my credit is actually very little, because first of all I did not know there was going to be anyone who needed help there, and so God is the one to lead me there in the first place.
Secondly, I am not the one who made my body or gave me my health, and what I can do to take care of it is shockingly little compared to everything God does to take care of it. I do not have to worry about splitting all of my cells or ingesting my food, for example. So the fact that I was at all capable of helping is also because of God.

So the work itself, even though it might look like it was me, is really 99% done by God. What is left to me was just the choice, whether to let God help those people through me, or not. Thus we have free will, but we also can’t take any credit for our good deeds, because the vast majority of the credit doesn’t belong to us.

 

[nfinke]

Hm. It seems by that logic you would have to put on Gods shoulders all of your bad deeds as well. For example, God would be just as responsible for you being there, and just as responsible for your youth and strength if you had used them to kick the old man into the trench and ran off. And of course that cant be.

…I think you were onto something in saying the opportunity for you to do good was Gods doing (although it is a little hard to think how God would influence you to run past a specific place seeing as you choose where to run, but I dont doubt that is beyond God), but saying God was the one actually helping seems to go too far. It does give me something to think about I hadnt approached it from that angle.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Here is from St Thomas in his Summa Contra Gentiles:
"Now, it might seem to someone that by divine help some external compulsion to good action is
exercised on man, because it has been said: “No man can come to Me, except the Father, Who
hath sent Me, draw him” ( John 6:44); and because of the statement in Romans (8:14): “Whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”; and in 2 Corinthians (5:14): “the
charity of Christ presses us.” Indeed, to be drawn, to be led, and to be pressed seem to imply
coercion.
But that this is not true is clearly shown. For divine providence provides for all things according
to their measure, as we have shown above. But it is proper to man, and to every rational nature, to
act voluntarily and to control his own acts, as it is clear from what we have said before. But coercion is contrary to this. Therefore, God by His help does not force men to right action.
Again, that divine help is provided man so that he may act well is to be understood in this way: it
performs our works in us, as the primary cause performs the operations of secondary causes, and
as a principal agent performs the action of an instrument. Hence, it is said in Isaiah (26:1213):
“You have wrought all our works for us, O Lord.” Now, the first cause causes the operation of the
secondary cause according to the measure of the latter. So, God also causes our works in us in
accord with our measure, which means that we act voluntarily and not as forced. Therefore, no
one is forced to right action by the divine help.
Besides, man is ordered to his end by his will, for the object of the will is the good and the end.
Now, divine help is chiefly afforded us so that we may obtain our end. So, this help does not
exclude from us the act of our will, but, rather, in a special way, produces this act in us. Hence, the
Apostle says, in Philippians (2:13): “it is God Who works in you, both to will and to accomplish,
according to good will.” But coercion excludes the act of the will in us, since we do under force
that whose contrary we will. Therefore, God does not force us by His help to act rightly."
Source: https://www.thomasaquinas.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/readings/StThomas-GraceAndFreeWill.pdf

 

[Theban]

Hm. It seems by that logic you would have to put on Gods shoulders all of your bad deeds as well. For example, God would be just as responsible for you being there, and just as responsible for your youth and strength if you had used them to kick the old man into the trench and ran off. And of course that cant be.

I think it holds up, but I agree we can’t give God the same credit for our sins as for our good deeds.

I think that God gives us the power to do good works with the intention of good deeds being done, and therefore he is the primary actor of those good deeds. If, however, we abuse those powers to do bad things, then the power is still given us from God, but we are the primary actor of them.

Still, this touches on an important point, because we are still reliant on God to be able to do even evil things. We have a distinction between what God wills and what God permits, but in both cases God is certainly part of the equation. So the question is why doesn’t God immediately withdraw his aid when we intend to put it to bad use?

Personally, I think that’s exactly what He does the vast majority of the time, but there is no way of knowing for certain.

 

[fhansen]

This is an important distinction. In Catholic teaching, grace is always resistible. Augustine said,
"He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent."

Also, from the catechism:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom . On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

 

[nfinke]

Yeah its that part that gets me, “without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight”.

That seems to paint us not as fallen but and fully depraved. It seems to me this is saying if God decided not to give me any grace, every word that came out of my mouth would be a lie, or I would without fail covet every good thing I saw, and so on. Other than choosing which kind of cereal i want to eat in the morning, I dont see how I can have freedom of choice in any meaningful way if every option that isnt sinful is literally impossible for me to choose unless I get additional help from God. Am I wrong in that?

 

[fhansen]

Man is lost, so lost he may not even know it at first, going through the motions of life as if all were in order even as we suffer in relative misery and angst and ignorance much of the time. But we don’t even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we’re here for, if for anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere. How can we possible resolve this matter, this condition, unless God reaches down to us first. And yet, that paragraph from the catechism still insists on man’s freedom to remain in darkness:
"man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it;"

We still have His image inside; we’re not totally ignorant or depraved in will; we’re wounded, chiefly and simply by being cut off from Him, which is why the “knowledge of God” is central to our salvation:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

From Eden until now, God does not force us to obey. Instead, He draws us; He covets our willful participation. Because within that cooperation on our part, our own justice is acquired-we become something, something He wants from and for us. Ultimately that something is most fully realized as we come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. This love is both a wok of His grace, and, necessarily, an act of our wills.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

That seems to paint us not as fallen but and fully depraved

Not necessarily. The Church teaches we are lost. We are corrupted at conception by sin. But not totally depraved. This obvious in seeing how humans are. Humans love, care, help, and do so many good things that are objectively good. And not all are Christian. Many are atheist, Muslim, Hindu, and so forth. So there is obviously good in everyone. This is where St. Paul talks about a war between his flesh and spirit. And where Jesus talks about the spirit being willing but the flesh is weak. We are all sinful, not so totally depraved of good that we can’t do good. That doesn’t make sense since there is good in the world. But we know, all good things come from God. So God is working in everyone, hence why there is good everywhere. But the difference maker is whether we accept the grace of God as the grace of God. God gives us grace, but it takes us accepting it for it to be effectual. But this is where the great debate in the reformation started.
I would recommend reading some of the Thomist views on grace and free will. That link i posted leads to Aquinas’s view. And there is so much work since him up until today going so deep into this. St. Robert Bellarmine as well has some good material on this.

 

[nfinke]

We are all sinful, not so totally depraved of good that we can’t do good.

I will read up on those for sure.

I understand we are lost. I guess I need to have a better understanding of what is meant by “grace.” I just need to understand there is some level of good we are capable of due to our own nature. Even if God grants the minimum amount of grace to every person, if I cant choose to do a good thing unless i get this special grace from God, that still doesnt seem like a free will, but a conditional will.

If we are not totally depraved of our own goodness, how far down is grace needed? If I see someone stumble in the street, am I really incapable of thinking “I should help them up” without God pushing me in that direction? Can I not comfort my own crying child without God actively leading me to do so?

 

[fhansen]

If I see someone stumble in the street, am I really incapable of thinking “I should help them up” without God pushing me in that direction? Can I not comfort my own crying child without God actively leading me to do so?

Yes, but we don’t even know God, much less have the ability to “locate” Him. But, as you say, the goodness that he built into all of His creation still resides within us. This concept of man being nothing more that a sinner by nature, a worthless wretch, is not a Catholic concept. So He appeals to that good part of us that can recognize and embrace the light when it’s offered, primarily as we’re willing to give up the pride that separates us from Him to begin with- and keeps us in darkness.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

So He appeals to that good part of us that can recognize and embrace the light when it’s offered

Beautifully said. There is a part within us that recognizes His grace and then we must make the choice to accept the grace which means following God or not.

 

[nfinke]

This concept of man being nothing more that a sinner by nature, a worthless wretch, is not a Catholic concept. So He appeals to that good part of us that can recognize and embrace the light when it’s offered, primarily as we’re willing to give up the pride that separates us from Him to begin with- and keeps us in darkness.

Ok this makes sense to me, or at the very least give me something to think on that I can wrap my head around, though I still have reading to do (I will look into aquinas, though Augustines book on this topic has been on my wishlist for a while).

Thank you all for the help.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

(I will look into aquinas, though Augustines book on this topic has been on my wishlist for a while).

I would recommend reading Augustine then going into Aquinas on it. Aquinas basically interprets Augustine for you.

 

[Latin]

I have heard people explain this concept by saying that every good act we commit is only through the grace of God.

There are two kind of free will, Libertarian free will and Aided free will.

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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AIDED FREE WILL
The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Only God has Libertarian free will no one else, God has given us aided free will.

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Libertarian free will would be useless for us.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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GOD HAS GIVEN US AIDED FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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As God himself operates in our will, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.

Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

… if I cant choose to do a good thing unless i get this special grace from God, that still doesnt seem like a free will, but a conditional will.

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.

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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…

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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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As we see above, we don’t have Libertarian free will, only God has Libertarian free will.

I believe, instead of “conditional will” better to call it Aided free will, because we FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

fhansen:

This concept of man being nothing more that a sinner by nature, a worthless wretch, is not a Catholic concept. So He appeals to that good part of us that can recognize and embrace the light when it’s offered, primarily as we’re willing to give up the pride that separates us from Him to begin with- and keeps us in darkness.

Ok this makes sense to me, or at the very least give me something to think on that I can wrap my head around, though I still have reading to do (I will look into aquinas, though Augustines book on this topic has been on my wishlist for a while).

Thank you all for the help.

God gives grace of conversion first, because a person has no power to save themselves by nature. The Second Council of Orange rejected what became known as double-predestination. None are foreordained to evil by the power of God.

God desires all mankind to be saved, but allows free will, so in fact, not all are saved. Those that are not saved are responsible for it alone. Those that are saved are partly responsible for it.

Eventually, if you continue, you will hit upon the issue over which there are centuries of debate: predestination. Note from Catholic Encyclopedia:

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

• a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
• b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
• c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm