Grace only or grace plus works

[prv]

Grace is given so that we may be saved by the shed Blood of our Savior Jesus Christ. And only that will wash away our sins. because we must be covered by the Blood because the Father cannot look upon sin. That is why Jesus, upon the Cross called to to God, not Abba, the only time He did not call His father “ABBA” because all our sin was placed upon Him. And Scripute says it pleased God to smite His Son.

Jesus did it all. Done with.

But forgivness requires me to confess and to repent.

What you do with your life -as good works- only adds to your merit when we stand before our Lord at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

What seems sad to me is that a saint like Mother Teresa , when she was asked if she thought she was going to heaven, she answered that she wasn’t sure if she had done enough.

Why is it we catholics are somehow taught that we must earn our way into Heaven? When Jesus has given us that guarentee. If only we reach for it.

Doxiemom

We do not “earn”, at least not in the traditional sense our way into heaven. Instead, God offers us a gift through baptism, we accept or reject it (mortal sin), we are either in heaven or hell once all is said and done. All you have said is correct, then.

 

[jemfinch]

The reason why I bring this up is that in rcia on the first day there was a brief comment by the rcia leader talking to one of the rcia helpers in the group who used to be luthern about him holding on to his saved by grace alone theology.I listen to father corapi in the morning on the way home form my grave yard shift and he always talks about grace alone.Some catholic websites say saved by grace but works must be added to it.This is a sore subject between evangelicals and catholics acusing of trying to earn our heaven.I haven’t been able to clarify this from our rcia leader as of yet.maybe I misunderstood what she was saying.

The soreness between evangelicals (or Protestants of any sort) and Catholics is not “grace alone.” All of us assent to that. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved and united with Christ by grace alone:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

…

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.

…

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

…

2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.

These are the words of the Church: we are saved by grace alone, and all the good works necessary for salvation (that’s the sore point between Protestants and Catholics; they say none are necessary) are enabled and perfected by the grace of God.

Jeremy

 

[JLM316]

I am following this thread, and have one thing I want to ask - If we are saved by Grace alone then if we love God and earnestly seek to do His will and try every day not to sin, and know that God loves us, why then is there any need for a faithful Christian to still fear that they will end up in hell?? Doesn’t our God of Love forgive the little mistakes that we humans will envitably make? Why must we continue to fear God, and worry about our soul ended up in hell, if we have grace. What I asking logically is if Christ died for our sins, and we accept that, and try each day to live according to His commandments and be a faithful follower, aren’t we then part of His family, and therefore God will forgive our little mistakes we might envitably make. If this is true, then I cannot understand why we cannot say if I were to die at this moment if I am a faithful follower of Christ, and want to be with Him and ask Him to forgive any thing I did wrong on my deathbed in the name of Jesus Christ, that I can’t say at that moment of death that I know I will be in heaven with the Lord that very day because I truly accepted that He died for me on the cross? I am asking whether a person who is dying in a state of grace and believe they will be with the Lord that very day, and not worry that they still might end up in hell because they weren’t good enough??

 

[mercygate]

I am following this thread, and have one thing I want to ask - If we are saved by Grace alone then if we love God and earnestly seek to do His will and try every day not to sin, and know that God loves us, why then is there any need for a faithful Christian to still fear that they will end up in hell??

Faithful Christians do not walk around fearing that they will go to Hell. But a faithful Christian knows that separation from God, especially irrevocable separation (i.e., Hell), is the worst thing that can ever happen to him and he “fears” it with a supernatural, holy fear that is quite unlike natural, or servile, human fear. “Fear of the Lord” is a gift of the Holy Sprit, to be treasured.

JLM316:

Doesn’t our God of Love forgive the little mistakes that we humans will envitably make? Why must we continue to fear God, and worry about our soul ended up in hell, if we have grace? What I asking logically is if Christ died for our sins, and we accept that, and try each day to live according to His commandments and be a faithful follower, aren’t we then part of His family,

A Christian would say that to be fully part of God’s family, one would be baptized.

JLM316:

. . .
and therefore God will forgive our little mistakes we might envitably make.

A Christian – a Catholic Christian – would say that there is no “therefore” about it, in the sense that God owes us the grace of forgiveness based on our own good efforts. He asks us to repent of our sins in a concrete way.

JLM316:

If this is true, then I cannot understand why we cannot say if I were to die at this moment if I am a faithful follower of Christ, and want to be with Him and ask Him to forgive any thing I did wrong on my deathbed in the name of Jesus Christ, that I can’t say at that moment of death that I know I will be in heaven with the Lord that very day because I truly accepted that He died for me on the cross? I am asking whether a person who is dying in a state of grace and believe they will be with the Lord that very day, and not worry that they still might end up in hell because they weren’t good enough??

You are right: dying in a state of grace will take you to heaven. Not necessarily “that very day” depending on how much cleaning up you need before entering the Holy City (nothing unclean may enter the Heavenly City), but you will be admitted to the Heavenly Banquet.

 

[Doxiemom]

Why, may I ask, does it matter if I was baptised into Catholism as a baby or if I converted as an adult. There is nothing un-scriptural in my remarks.

I ain’t mad but I ain’t telling.

Doxiemom

 

[whosebob]

Why, may I ask, does it matter if I was baptised into Catholism as a baby or if I converted as an adult. There is nothing un-scriptural in my remarks …

JMJ + OBT​

He asked because I implied in a thread in CAF’s “Eastern Christianity” forum that your remarks displayed a Protestant understanding of the Doctrine of the Atonment. When I submitted the post linking to your comments, I thought I had remembered that your CAF profile indicated you are a Protestant Christian – I was wrong; your profile indicates you are a Catholic. But I stand by my analysis, that your remarks suggest a Protestantized understanding of the Cross. My statement is not and was not intended as an insult; please see my earlier posts in that same thread for more information.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[RC1960]

CAL archive: Sept 18, '06.

Forward to minute 43:00

catholic.com/audio/2006/MP3/ca060918a.mp3

 

[Ghosty]

JMJ + OBT​

He asked because I implied in a thread in CAF’s “Eastern Christianity” forum that your remarks displayed a Protestant understanding of the Doctrine of the Atonment. When I submitted the post linking to your comments, I thought I had remembered that your CAF profile indicated you are a Protestant Christian – I was wrong; your profile indicates you are a Catholic. But I stand by my analysis, that your remarks suggest a Protestantized understanding of the Cross. My statement is not and was not intended as an insult; please see my earlier posts in that same thread for more information.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

Actually, I didn’t even see your post

I asked because in reading it I saw that this view is a Protestant formula of redemption, not a Catholic one, and it goes against Catholic tradition on the matter (and Catholic dogma, because it represents a Nestorian interpretation, and Nestorianism was condemned in the 5th century at the Council of Ephesus). Further, it’s not Scriptural, because there is nothing in Scripture that suggests that God couldn’t look upon Jesus on the Cross, and again such an interpretation is forbidden by the Council of Ephesus.

So the reason I ask is because you may not have known about these teachings, and I was curious as to whether you were raised Protestant, and therefore exposed to these erroneous views all your life, or if you had not been fully instructed growing up as a Catholic.

It’s nothing against you, it’s just that the view your expressing is not at all Catholic, and is denied by Ecumenical Councils.

Peace and God bless!

 

[tdandh26]

I am following this thread, and have one thing I want to ask - If we are saved by Grace alone then if we love God and earnestly seek to do His will and try every day not to sin, and know that God loves us, why then is there any need for a faithful Christian to still fear that they will end up in hell?? Doesn’t our God of Love forgive the little mistakes that we humans will envitably make? Why must we continue to fear God, and worry about our soul ended up in hell, if we have grace. What I asking logically is if Christ died for our sins, and we accept that, and try each day to live according to His commandments and be a faithful follower, aren’t we then part of His family, and therefore God will forgive our little mistakes we might envitably make. If this is true, then I cannot understand why we cannot say if I were to die at this moment if I am a faithful follower of Christ, and want to be with Him and ask Him to forgive any thing I did wrong on my deathbed in the name of Jesus Christ, that I can’t say at that moment of death that I know I will be in heaven with the Lord that very day because I truly accepted that He died for me on the cross? I am asking whether a person who is dying in a state of grace and believe they will be with the Lord that very day, and not worry that they still might end up in hell because they weren’t good enough??

My simple answer to this is obedience. It was through disobedience that man fell. It is through obedience to that which Christ established that we fully realize the truth. This is the truth that will set you free. For once you understand the truth and not simply make it up as you desire it to be, you will confess your sins as Christ wanted.

Again it was through the disobedience of a few men that many were led away into false doctrines, many of which are just rehashes of old heresies. There is no excuse for a person even though not born into the fullness of truth, if that person never seeks for it or just will not accept it because of the difficulties it may pose to his/her current state in life.

I myself wonder with a bit of sorrow at how a person responds to Jesus when He says to them after death “why did you not follow me along the narrow path, but rather chose to create your own based on what you desired me to be?” I myself am very glad that I do not have to interpret scripture on my own since I am a creature prone to errors, but rather that Christ who is all knowing left us an infallible souce, which may have started out the size of a mustard seed but has grown into the Catholic Church as we know it today. Thus those who reject true teaching of the One Church are following in the footsteps of Adam and Eve who thought they knew better than God.

 

[Doxiemom]

I hope i did not offend anyone.

My paternal grandfather was a deacon in the Roman Catholic Church in Italy(long before I ever heard of a "deacon) and unfortunately he saw and knew many abuses that went on with the priests. I have no reason to doubt his word. These things so sickned him and he found so few real men of faith that he left behind him the RCC and never returned. He did not as far as I know ever stop believing in Christ.-influence #1

My mother was raised as a Southern Baptist but converted to Catholicism . Although some things were hard for her to adjust to, she found a deep spiritual closeness to God through Mass. And an acceptness of Mary as a greater role. Even statues were an adjustment. She has said that she can never leave Mass behind her, nor weekly Holy Communion, - influence #2

A neighbor was a most gentle man, a gardener, never married. After a few years he told me he was an ex-priest. I was shocked. He never dwelled on what his reasons were, but the little i know is that too many things disturbed his soul. And now he said he speaks with God in his garden. I never knew if the man still worshippped in any formal church- influence #3

I know that I am no big time catholic, nor am I a catholic basher. Mass and weekly Holy Communion which includes the wine (which disturbingly so few partake of-an insult to Jesus in my opinion)- these are the center around which I worship God. Yes, I listen to many different pastors and i enjoy EWTN and love visiting priests. So many perspectives. All with the same message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have corresponded with my priest and was very direct with him. He gave me his blessing and told me my path has led me deep into Christ.

I think of my self as a Christian who worships in the Roman Catholic tradtion. My loyalty is to Jesus Christ. I am in prayer almost always with Him and feel no need for an intercessor. My stories that have happened since I began on this journey are filled with wonderous times. Jesus is so close. I have felt Him. And many of my prayers have been to Him to always lead me to Truth. And that is why I am here. He lead me here.

I appreciate any concern if you feel I am not "catholic"enough. But I am most definately a Christian. All I want is to remain in this chruch for Mass and Holy communion. I hope I am always welcome here, even if I am “different” I am so very much looking for a place to belong to.

Sincerly yours in Chrsit;
Doxiemom

 

[Ghosty]

I appreciate any concern if you feel I am not "catholic"enough. But I am most definately a Christian. All I want is to remain in this chruch for Mass and Holy communion. I hope I am always welcome here, even if I am “different” I am so very much looking for a place to belong to.

Of course you are welcome!

Also, don’t worry that I think you’re “not Catholic enough”. My main concern is that erroneous understandings can actually inhibit one’s relationship with Christ. After all, if you don’t understand someone how close can you ultimately get to them? If I didn’t think you love Christ, it wouldn’t be so much of a concern of mine. I hope I didn’t upset you too much.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Doxiemom]

Ah how nice to hear a kind word. Thank you Ghosty.
May the Lord Bless you and Keep you and May His Face shine down upon you

Doxiemom

 

[Walking_Home]

I hope i did not offend anyone.

I know that I am no big time catholic, nor am I a catholic basher. Mass and weekly Holy Communion which includes the wine (which disturbingly so few partake of-an insult to Jesus in my opinion)- these are the center around which I worship God. Yes, I listen to many different pastors and i enjoy EWTN and love visiting priests. So many perspectives. All with the same message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have corresponded with my priest and was very direct with him. He gave me his blessing and told me my path has led me deep into Christ.

I think of my self as a Christian who worships in the Roman Catholic tradtion. My loyalty is to Jesus Christ. I am in prayer almost always with Him and feel no need for an intercessor. My stories that have happened since I began on this journey are filled with wonderous times. Jesus is so close. I have felt Him. And many of my prayers have been to Him to always lead me to Truth. And that is why I am here. He lead me here.

I appreciate any concern if you feel I am not "catholic"enough. But I am most definately a Christian. All I want is to remain in this chruch for Mass and Holy communion. I hope I am always welcome here, even if I am “different” I am so very much looking for a place to belong to.

Sincerly yours in Chrsit;
Doxiemom

---

Since I do not receive from the Cup— I do find it offensive for you to say that I am insulting our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since you state that your loyalty is to our Lord Jesus Christ–does this loyalty also extent to His Church—and to Her teachings.