Gratitude

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What I would like to know from an atheist is what do they do with their profound sense of gratitude for the beauty of the night sky? It does no good to be grateful to a thing. A thing does not care. We can only express gratitude to a creator who is aware of His Creation and of us.

But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.

Can gratitude for the universe exist without a creator?
 
What I would like to know from an atheist is what do they do with their profound sense of gratitude for the beauty of the night sky? It does no good to be grateful to a thing. A thing does not care. We can only express gratitude to a creator who is aware of His Creation and of us.

But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.

Can gratitude for the universe exist without a creator?
Gratitude wouldn’t be a word I’d use. Impressed. Awestruck. Amazed. Unnerved. Humbled. Frustrated. Curious. Lucky.

But not grateful.
 
What I would like to know from an atheist is what do they do with their profound sense of gratitude for the beauty of the night sky? It does no good to be grateful to a thing. A thing does not care. We can only express gratitude to a creator who is aware of His Creation and of us.

But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.

Can gratitude for the universe exist without a creator?
What is the use of feeling gratitude to God when he doesn’t experience your feeling? God is changeless!
 
What is the use of feeling gratitude to God when he doesn’t experience your feeling? God is changeless!
Interesting thought. I have never thought that God being changeless would limit His ability to have feelings or responses. As a Catholic, I believe that Christ is God, and he responded to the people around Him. He responded to his friends who loved Him.

But that is a discussion I can only have with someone who believes that God exists. It is not a valid point to make with an atheist so I won’t elaborate further. I only point it out because I want to explain why I can not follow your reasoning.

You made the statement, “God is changeless.” Does this mean that you personally believe that God exists and is changeless or is this statement your understanding of what I believe.
 
Gratitude wouldn’t be a word I’d use. Impressed. Awestruck. Amazed. Unnerved. Humbled. Frustrated. Curious. Lucky.

But not grateful.
I would use all the same words to express my emotions as well, with the exception of the word lucky. I would probably replace that word with the word blessed. But that is neither here nor there.

So, although you and I do not agree on the existence of God we do agree on most of the emotions we feel when we are able to look up at a dark winter sky and see all those beautiful stars and in our humility contemplate its beauty.

The only real difference then is the word gratitude.
 
Interesting thought. I have never thought that God being changeless would limit His ability to have feelings or responses. As a Catholic, I believe that Christ is God, and he responded to the people around Him. He responded to his friends who loved Him.
That is true (bold part). Whether Jesus is God is subject of another topic. I have a discussion about this topic long time ago. It would be difficult for me to find the thread but the idea is very simple. Jesus has foreknowledge if he is God. This means that He is aware of his action before he decide to make them. This means that Jesus has not free will. Therefore God cannot incarnate as a human being.
But that is a discussion I can only have with someone who believes that God exists. It is not a valid point to make with an atheist so I won’t elaborate further. I only point it out because I want to explain why I can not follow your reasoning.
I am not an atheist. I just don’t know what is the truth. I however know that most of teachings given by religions are false.
You made the statement, “God is changeless.” Does this mean that you personally believe that God exists and is changeless or is this statement your understanding of what I believe.
I don’t believe in changeless God because of many reasons one of them stated above. I believe that God if there is any should be in state of peace. Such a God could be disturbed with our actions and He then can respond properly.
 
But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.
Not lonely at all. Many people have other people in their life. While living with others with which one has close and loving relationships and having people with which one can share their thoughts and feel safe may be a condition under which one does not feel lonely. This can be the case for both someone that is convinced that there is a God and for someone who is not convinced. What might be lonely is if someone were unable to express their thoughts or share their experience with anyone else. Imagine if you were the only person that had seen the night sky among a group of people*. It could feel lonely to be unable to find anyone else that has ever had the experience or unable to find someone with which to express your thoughts about it.
    • a scenario that might not be as far fetched as it sounds. Where I live and in some other cities the sky has a continuous orange haze on a clear night due to light pollution and high humidity. Unless I drive a considerable distance the night sky doesn’t look as grand. To date I’ve only met one person that has ever been in an area where the Sagittarius arm of the Milky Way could be seen with the unaided eye.
So, although you and I do not agree on the existence of God we do agree on most of the emotions we feel when we are able to look up at a dark winter sky and see all those beautiful stars and in our humility contemplate its beauty.

The only real difference then is the word gratitude.
I think that by being human most of us are able to feel the same emotions and our differences here may only be in our semantics when describing these emotions under various conditions. I myself would reserve the use of “gratitude” unless talking about my disposition to someone else for their kind actions (ex: I might have gratitude to a person that brought me cold water on a hot day). Whether or not I got that cold water through someone else or acquired it on my own I would appreciate the cold water (as in finding it enjoyable and good). There is some overlap in usage of “appreciation” and “gratitude” (one could have appreciation for a person or a relationship). Where there is no person thought to be involved I don’t use the word “gratitude.”
 
What is the use of feeling gratitude to God when he doesn’t experience your feeling? God is changeless!
I don’t have the book with me (it’s at home) but I remember reading about another group in the Oxford Handbook of Religion. This group believes there is a God (or great spirit, I can’t remember how the group labeled the entity) but did not worship or seek to interact with it in any way. From there perspective there was nothing they could do that would have any significant effect on such a great being. Attempting to please it or do anything for ti seemed pointless to them.
 
“Where there is no person thought to be involved…” I would think that in many if not most instances a person or persons could be thought to be involved in one way or another.
The bottled water for example: one could be grateful for or to the folks that bottled it, transported it, stocked it in the store, invented refrigeration, glass, plastic, etc… and much more.
As for the night sky and stars. If one doesn’t believe in god then one can still be grateful for the ability to see. Possibly with the aid of eye glasses or maybe for the doctor that just cleared away the cataracts.
While I do believe in a creator I don’t generally think of terms of gratitude when experiencing the wonders of nature, etc… I do however enjoy the view and take time to smell the roses so to speak.
 
“Where there is no person thought to be involved…” I would think that in many if not most instances a person or persons could be thought to be involved in one way or another.The bottled water for example: one could be grateful for or to the folks that bottled it, transported it, stocked it in the store, invented refrigeration, glass, plastic, etc… and much more.
While not spelled out what I had in mind for the scenario was a 16 mile hiking trip I took over half a life time ago. As planned I came across a river from which I could drink. I recognize the waters of this rivers were good for my needs and enjoyed its presence (appreciation). I don’t know of any people being involved in the formation of this river and don’t have the feelings that I get when someone performs a kind act for me (gratitude). It’s not impossible that a river be man made. Having no reason to think it is no other person is thought to be involved in the drink of water I had that day.

I do occasionally purchase cases of water from a grocery store. My procurement of water this way doesn’t cause the same emotions that I experience when I have the feeling of gratitude. Rather it is routine and somewhat impersonal. While people being involved seems to be a necessary condition for me to feel gratitude it’s not sufficient. The transaction is routine and impersonal and doesn’t leave any strong memories. It doesn’t feel like any kind gesture is involved. I once was cutting someone else’s grass on a hot day. In what may have been an expression of gratitude to me the person brought me cold water. And I felt gratitude to the person for having the kind consideration of my thirst and doing something about it. That exchange made a lasting impression. If someone were to make a bad tasting drink or had attempted to cook a meal for me and failed as long as I know there were kind intentions involved I could feel gratitude for it I could probably only talk of buying water in terms of the procedure instead of speaking about the feelings I got from a specific experience of buying water. I appreciate having access to potable water. But acquisition of it in this manner doesn’t inspire gratitude for me.
I don’t generally think of terms of gratitude when experiencing the wonders of nature, etc… I do however enjoy the view and take time to smell the roses so to speak.
Similarly I enjoy some of the sights and experiences that can be found in nature but would not describe the feelings from them as gratitude.
 
Thinkingsapien I understand what you are expressing about the river and (to me anyway) that makes sense-others may disagree. When purchasing water, coffee, etc from a store or gasoline from the local pit stop I also see where you’re coming from as a matter of course. I don’t believe anyone goes around thinking to themselves how grateful they are at every turn of their day though it probably wouldn’t hurt if we did that more.
I’m thinking more along the lines of each day thinking of something we are grateful for even if it is one thing. I know a guy that leads qigong classes and he gave me a “gratitude stone”. This stone some folks put in their pocket, others may put in a purse. When we touch it or see it we are inviting ourselves to think of three things we are grateful for at that moment. I put it on the end table near the couch and sometimes I simply see it and forget about it, other times I will think of some things I’m grateful/thankful for or as you put it appreciate. Take care and stay safe.
 
That is true (bold part). Whether Jesus is God is subject of another topic. I have a discussion about this topic long time ago. It would be difficult for me to find the thread but the idea is very simple. Jesus has foreknowledge if he is God. This means that He is aware of his action before he decide to make them. This means that Jesus has not free will. Therefore God cannot incarnate as a human being.

I am not an atheist. I just don’t know what is the truth. I however know that most of teachings given by religions are false.

I don’t believe in changeless God because of many reasons one of them stated above. I believe that God if there is any should be in state of peace. Such a God could be disturbed with our actions and He then can respond properly.
One of the reasons why I started this thread is to listen to these ideas. I am not one to debate - partly because I am a pitifully inadequate debater and partly because, unless controlled by a good moderator, people really get angry at times.

I think that for a lot us we have assumptions about what a god would or would not be and judge God on these assumptions. Logic is a wonderful tool. I would frame that statement more as a wonderful gift. But it is only a tool and I think that many people have used it, not as a tool but as a inflexible standard.

Recently I bought a book for my grandchildren to help me explain to them the major belief systems and major religions of the world (“What Do You Believe?” ). Although it was written for children I have learned a lot in a short period of time. For instance, I did not really understand what an agnostic believed. I always thought that an agnostic was some one who would say, “I don’t know if there is a god.” I was surprised to find out that agnosticism can mean, “We can not know if there is a god.” Do you define yourself as an agnostic in this light?
 
What I would like to know from an atheist is what do they do with their profound sense of gratitude for the beauty of the night sky? It does no good to be grateful to a thing. A thing does not care. We can only express gratitude to a creator who is aware of His Creation and of us.

But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.

Can gratitude for the universe exist without a creator?
I can’t look inside other people’s heads, so maybe there are atheists who feel gratitude towards the universe. I, however, am not among those atheists, so I can’t answer your first question.
 
Not lonely at all. Many people have other people in their life. While living with others with which one has close and loving relationships and having people with which one can share their thoughts and feel safe may be a condition under which one does not feel lonely. This can be the case for both someone that is convinced that there is a God and for someone who is not convinced. What might be lonely is if someone were unable to express their thoughts or share their experience with anyone else. Imagine if you were the only person that had seen the night sky among a group of people*. It could feel lonely to be unable to find anyone else that has ever had the experience or unable to find someone with which to express your thoughts about it.
    • a scenario that might not be as far fetched as it sounds. Where I live and in some other cities the sky has a continuous orange haze on a clear night due to light pollution and high humidity. Unless I drive a considerable distance the night sky doesn’t look as grand. To date I’ve only met one person that has ever been in an area where the Sagittarius arm of the Milky Way could be seen with the unaided eye.
I think that by being human most of us are able to feel the same emotions and our differences here may only be in our semantics when describing these emotions under various conditions. I myself would reserve the use of “gratitude” unless talking about my disposition to someone else for their kind actions (ex: I might have gratitude to a person that brought me cold water on a hot day). Whether or not I got that cold water through someone else or acquired it on my own I would appreciate the cold water (as in finding it enjoyable and good). There is some overlap in usage of “appreciation” and “gratitude” (one could have appreciation for a person or a relationship). Where there is no person thought to be involved I don’t use the word “gratitude.”
Your use of the word gratitude is my take on the word as well. I can’t be grateful to water because it exists. I appreciate a cold glass of water. The same goes for anger. I can be angry because I fell over a rock, but it makes no sense at all to be angry at the rock.

There is another word that was not mentioned - love. I love the Colorado night sky in the winter even though it is often to cold to stand out gaze very long. Which of course begs the question can we love an inanimate object?

I’ll bet that even though you live in a more polluted humid area, you have wonderful sunsets.

Here is another question I often think about. How does our surroundings effect our understanding of God or belief that God does not exist?
 
One of the reasons why I started this thread is to listen to these ideas. I am not one to debate - partly because I am a pitifully inadequate debater and partly because, unless controlled by a good moderator, people really get angry at times.
That is very good idea to start thread in order to become familiar with other system of believes. I don’t think if I am a good debater or not but I read less and think much more on different topics. I hope that I can resolve all problems I have in my mind and find a consistent system of belief.
I think that for a lot us we have assumptions about what a god would or would not be and judge God on these assumptions. Logic is a wonderful tool. I would frame that statement more as a wonderful gift. But it is only a tool and I think that many people have used it, not as a tool but as a inflexible standard.
I agree that we should judge our system of believes constantly.
Recently I bought a book for my grandchildren to help me explain to them the major belief systems and major religions of the world (“What Do You Believe?” ). Although it was written for children I have learned a lot in a short period of time. For instance, I did not really understand what an agnostic believed. I always thought that an agnostic was some one who would say, “I don’t know if there is a god.” I was surprised to find out that agnosticism can mean, “We can not know if there is a god.” Do you define yourself as an agnostic in this light?
I am a monist believing that everything is made of same stuff, including God. I am currently contemplating to understand myself under monist framework and I am having some trouble, such as birth, life after death, etc. I am still very far to understand the problem of beginning whether God cause it or it started by itself. Therefore I have no definition for God yet.
 
I don’t have the book with me (it’s at home) but I remember reading about another group in the Oxford Handbook of Religion. This group believes there is a God (or great spirit, I can’t remember how the group labeled the entity) but did not worship or seek to interact with it in any way. From there perspective there was nothing they could do that would have any significant effect on such a great being. Attempting to please it or do anything for ti seemed pointless to them.
That is probably the most profound difference in the Catholic way of thinking and John Calvin. My son is a Presbyterian minister and he tried to explain that to me the distance between God and man is so great that this is nothing we can do to reach God. It is between these two perspectives that the great argument of free will or lack of free will begins.
 
Which of course begs the question can we love an inanimate object?
I would say that someone can. Though there are various feelings that we refer to as “love.” If I were asked “Can the feelings you have for your mom and dad be had for an inanimate object” I would answer “no.” It may be an instance of the same term being used for a spectrum of concepts.
I’ll bet that even though you live in a more polluted humid area, you have wonderful sunsets.
A note of clarity, the thing that impacts my viewing of the night sky, light pollution, is different from what many others refer to as pollution. The bright lights of the city and the airport shining into the sky are scattered by the humidity. When looking up at night we see the sky illuminated by ground lighting. This makes much of what the night sky has to offer washed out and not visible. The bright starts can be seen but many other sights that would be visible to the unaided or aided eye are not accessible due to the lighting.

Answering your question: There are some beautiful sunsets. Seeing them requires a bit of planning since the presence of tall pines around where I live and 20-50 stories buildings around where I work the horizon and sunset are not something that are normally visible to those of us usually at ground level. There are some groups that occasionally meet on Stone Mountain (confederate memorial to the east of Atlanta) to watch the sun rise/set since it’s clearly visible from the top of the mountain. But it’s a bit of a hike to get to the top of the mountain.
 
I would say that someone can. Though there are various feelings that we refer to as “love.” If I were asked “Can the feelings you have for your mom and dad be had for an inanimate object” I would answer “no.” It may be an instance of the same term being used for a spectrum of concepts.

A note of clarity, the thing that impacts my viewing of the night sky, light pollution, is different from what many others refer to as pollution. The bright lights of the city and the airport shining into the sky are scattered by the humidity. When looking up at night we see the sky illuminated by ground lighting. This makes much of what the night sky has to offer washed out and not visible. The bright starts can be seen but many other sights that would be visible to the unaided or aided eye are not accessible due to the lighting.

Answering your question: There are some beautiful sunsets. Seeing them requires a bit of planning since the presence of tall pines around where I live and 20-50 stories buildings around where I work the horizon and sunset are not something that are normally visible to those of us usually at ground level. There are some groups that occasionally meet on Stone Mountain (confederate memorial to the east of Atlanta) to watch the sun rise/set since it’s clearly visible from the top of the mountain. But it’s a bit of a hike to get to the top of the mountain.
There is planning for a winter night sky as well. No moon, no clouds, recent storm so the air is clear, fairly late at night and my not being to lazy to put on warm clothes and venture out into the cold air. But when it all comes together - nothing fills me with more wonder. I suppose those who live by seas fill the same way about their surroundings.

The word love is certainly a difficult word to capture. We all seem to understand what it means but we apply in so many ways and in so many different contexts. It is no wonder that people have trouble communicating their thoughts. My love for my pets is not the same for my grand children.

It seems to me that you spend a great deal of thought to the meanings and nuances of words. I can never get very far in a philosophical discussion because words seldom ever mean the same thing between people.
 
It seems to me that you spend a great deal of thought to the meanings and nuances of words. I can never get very far in a philosophical discussion because words seldom ever mean the same thing between people.
I probably do. I also tend to be among people that do. Missing the nuance of a word is an occupational hazard and it can have significant consequences. Looser word usages work fine for every day conversation but when implementing a software solution for a client small differences in interpretations of something can cause problems.

Two of my closest friends are lawyers and both of which have a degree in a communications field. Another is a project manager for a large telecommunications company. They also have reasons for paying close attention to word usages. I’d imaging that all of us interacting with each other to possibly strengthen the related tendencies. For all of us we occasionally find ourselves being revisited by our own words if an email from 2 or 3 years ago becomes relevant.

I also like reading books about words (“Etymologicon” is a great book. “Bad English” is also pretty good).
 
What I would like to know from an atheist is what do they do with their profound sense of gratitude for the beauty of the night sky? It does no good to be grateful to a thing. A thing does not care. We can only express gratitude to a creator who is aware of His Creation and of us.

But I suppose an atheist can feel gratitude even if there is no one to receive that gratitude. It seems to me to be a rather lonely experience.

Can gratitude for the universe exist without a creator?
I think gratitude can exist without explicit knowledge of the creator.
Gratitude leads a person to the creator, or at least to realities outside one’s self.

Anyone with the humility to accept that he didn’t create that sunset can have a sense of gratitude that it still exists without his (name removed by moderator)ut or action.

Gratitude implies grace, or gift.
If I do not create something (pretty much the whole universe) then it is all gift.
Gratitude recognizes correctly that everything that exists was created by something or someone -not- me, and responds to that reality.

Or you can also make the proposition that everything is merely accidental. Which begs the obvious circle of which accident was non-accidental.
 
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