Grave matters vs. scruples

[Ziggamafu]

A link to my initial question, as seen below

ME: the whole “grave matter” thing seems to be so subjective…i don’t think that there has ever been an official declaration that the 10 commandments suffice…so is there a list of “grave matters”?

CA:Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

a link to someone else’s q&a that causes me trouble, as seen below…

HIM: I committed a lustful sin two times and confessed it to two different priests. I was truely sorry for the sin and committed to not doing it again but I failed and did it again. This time I confessed it to a different priest and he said that lustful thinking and masturbation was not a serious sin and was very common. He that that I would probably fail again, and that I should not run to the confessional each time. He said that I could say an act of contrition to myself to have God forgive the sin instead. He made me think that this lustful sin was not mortal because it was not a serious issue. Was the priest right in what he told me???

CA: Dear Swim,
The Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes “Persona humana 9” from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in stating: “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” In other words, it is objectively a mortal sin and must be confessed.
I’m sure the priest meant well and considered such counsel as “pastoral.” But he did you no favors is contradicting the teaching of the Church.

My PM to Father Vincent:

Father,

Your response causes me some internal conflict over the response to my question about what the “grave” matters are and my possible scruples. The answer I was given was that the 10 commandments are the “grave matters” that, when coupled with the other two conditions necessary, yield a mortal sin. Masturbation is not listed there…and if one is capable of reading into the 10 commandments to produce an ever-increasing list of grave matters (one such example being masturbation) then it would seem I am back to square one with my initial question. Anything can be subjectively interpreted to be a grave matter by anyone. Please help!

Love,

Ziggamafu

SO! This is where I am: If there are three conditions necessary to make a sin mortal, than man oh man should there be three more conditions to make a matter “GRAVE”!!! Please advise, explain, debate, etc.

 

[Grayton]

A link to my initial question, as seen below

CA:Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

The answer you typed above is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 1858.

There is not a single checklist of “grave sins”

Some sins are clearly “grave” sins, while others are more grave than others, but you and your confessor would have to judge where they fell on the spectrum. For example, I would judge it to be a grave sin to steal a poor person’s last ten dollars. But to deliberatley not return a ten dollar book to your library might only be a venial sin. Somewhere in between there is a line between “grave” and “not grave”, but human experience and imagination is so varied that no one would be able to draw that line for all time.

On the other hand, some sins are clearly “grave sins.” Father Edwin F. Healy, a Professor of Moral Theology, wrote in his 1942 book, “Moral Guidance” (pages 57-58):

1. Scripture calls some sins “abominable”, “worthy of eternal punishment”, “hated by God.”
2. The Church has explicitly branded some sins as mortal or imposed a grave punishment, like excommunication, for them.
3. The Fathers of the Chruch and other learned theologians have given opinions on the gravity of certain sins, and it would be reckless of us to contradict their opinions.
4. The nature of some sins is obvious, such as those which cause serious injury to our neighbor.

But there is no final checklist.

May God bless you.

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

Dear Ziggamafu,

I’m no expert in anything, especially moral theology. However, it seems to me that the statement that someone made in your post about “objectively mortal sins” is a misstatement. Nothing is objectively sinful. Actions can be objectively evil or objectively grave but the gravity of the matter does not determine the mortality of the sin. Sin is entirely subjective since it depends on the subject’s knowledge and freedom and intention.

What conditions do you think there could be in determining the gravity of an act?

 

[francisca]

I would like to give a little suggestion for HIM and those who has similar problem as HIM :

HIM: I committed a lustful sin two times and confessed it to two different priests. I was truely sorry for the sin and committed to not doing it again but I failed and did it again. This time I confessed it to a different priest and he said that lustful thinking and masturbation was not a serious sin and was very common. He that that I would probably fail again, and that I should not run to the confessional each time. He said that I could say an act of contrition to myself to have God forgive the sin instead. He made me think that this lustful sin was not mortal because it was not a serious issue. Was the priest right in what he told me???

If you confess your sin, at least you know that this action is sin. That your conscience is not right with it. Then you do not want to do this again in your heart, but your body wants it again.

Confession of sin is very important because you acknowledge that this action as “a sin”, and that you have to have attitude of “strongly refuse it” in your heart (although may be not yet in action).

You said that you confessed to two different priests. Next time you do it again just push yourself to confess to the same priest all the time. (Choose the one you think goes with your conscience, not the one to say “this is not grave matters, bla… bla…”). Everytime you do it you try to confess it. This will also makes you think before you do it : you will think that “If I do this again I will have to go for confession”. This causes you to think before doing it, and the pressure will be more and more after a while. Now this could be one way to go.

Along the way, beside confessing your sin, don’t forget to confess your FAITH : that God is good, and that He is the one to help you no matter what, that He has died for your sins. You say to Him that your heart is with Him. Then say to Him “I am Yours Lord, save me”. Say this many times. And when the “lust” is coming, say to it “I refuse you in the name of Jesus”.

And don’t forget to read bible, ask God The Holy Spirit to teach you all the things you need to know about God, and that He guard you along the way according to His Promise and Faithfulness to you no matter what happens.

On top of that : know your strength, do not come near temptations. “Ask God to keep away temptations and to deliver you from evil” (The Lord’s prayer)

Good luck and May God bless you.

 

[Ziggamafu]

That second thing was not my question - it was someone else’s on the question and answer forum, which i read regularly. however, since the answer he received confused me, i wanted clarification.

anyway, the crux is this: if you die with mortal sin on your conscience, you go to hell. and since the replies i’m getting suggest that any venial sin could be mortal, given the right situation, and that any matter could be grave, you should go to confession every five minutes and right a list everytime you knowingly and willingly go 5 over on the freeway.

it is called “scruples” when we condemn ourselves for every little thing and go to confession too much. but if every little thing could be mortal, shouldn’t we be bothering the priest with constant cell phone calls and walk-in appointments?

shouldn’t we be willing to walk out of work to seek confession? which is more important your job or your soul?

shouldn’t we be willing to walk out of a date with our spouses for the same reason because we remember that we knowingly and willingly have been using reems of paper at work for personal uses? who is more important your wife or your relationship with God?

 

[francisca]

Ziggamafu:

it is called “scruples” when we condemn ourselves for every little thing and go to confession too much. but if every little thing could be mortal, shouldn’t we be bothering the priest with constant cell phone calls and walk-in appointments?

You are right about having “scruples” is not good. We ought not condemn ourselves all the time because of all failures we make. The reason for this is because we ought to HOPE IN JESUS instead of depend PURELY on LAW OBSERVANCE. Because if we think we can fulfill all “rules” perfectly, then we don’t have to have faith in Jesus anymore.

However in the case of certain issues, some sin does disturbs our conscience more than other sins.

In the case of “HIM”, his confessor said that “HIM” does not need to come to confession all the time, because to have FAITH in God’s actions is as important as following “standard rules” (having to confess).

I-- however-- disagree with him when he said that masturbation is a common thing as to make it perceived as if “it’s OK” to do it. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. And this Holy Spirit is a lot stronger than our lust if we trust Him and willing to walk with Him daily, soon enough sin cannot take hold both our body as well as our soul. God gives man authority over sin in the Name of Jesus.]

We make a lot of mistakes everyday. Some of them could shake our conscience and therefore if one “feel this condemnation” he must go for confession, and also confess his FAITH in God that despite “failures” there is always “hope” in Jesus (Jesus forgives even the most persistent sinners). Try reading bible etc is also necessary. The damage that should be repair first of all is our RELATIONSHIP with God. This is the reason that Sin tries to take hold our body.

As for “List of grave sins” just check your conscience. If you can’t live with it, then it is “grave” !

You are right when you say that we cannot go to confession every 5 minutes. That is too much. Therefore the priest in “HIM’s” case must have said to “HIM” : “don’t come too often, go and repair your relationship with God !”

Release from bad habit, healing from sickness etc are only “signs” of God’s Favor. The real thing about it, is the RESTORATION of RELATIONSHIP with Him.

So one cannot only confess and confess and confess all the time, but “having no increase in relationship” with God. The reparation of relationship is the purpose of reconciliation.

And how to avoid “scruples” ? Not by “erasing/ ignoring sacrament of reconciliation” (let the sacrament available for those who needs it) but by knowing this : That God is not accusing us. God want to forgive us. God want to release us from the slavery of sin. God is “my defender” and “trustable Counsel” and “faithful Partner” in my daily walk.

How do we do this? We do this by KNOWING that “everytime I screw up : He is the one to pick up the pieces and cleaning up my mess”. When I break down, I know that He will make me whole again". If we know this, then we know His Faithfulness, then we know His Heart too.

John 17:1-3
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him AUTHORITY over all FLESH, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give ETERNAL LIFE. "This is ETERNAL LIFE, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent .

God bless.

 

[Ziggamafu]

so how do we KNOW (since things such as these, which weigh the destiny of your eternal soul) when just confessing to God and asking Him for forgiveness is enough? How do we KNOW where the line is to be drawn to go to the priest? Is it necessary to confess to a priest as well as to God privately for every sin to be forgiven? I know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other and I believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation; but is going to confession necessary for getting the sin forgiven, or is it something encouraged by God to merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God (forgiveness)?

 

[Grayton]

Ziggamafu:

Is it necessary to confess to a priest as well as to God privately for every sin to be forgiven? I know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other and I believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation; but is going to confession necessary for getting the sin forgiven, or is it something encouraged by God to merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God (forgiveness)?

Confession is necessary for mortal sins. We do not have to confess venial sins. When in doubt, err on the side of safety and confess. Over time, if you are being too scrupulous, a good confessor will help you become a better judge of your actions.

Just asking God to forgive us is not enough. If it was, then the words of Christ to the Apostles, “Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained” would be meaningless. Clearly there are some sins that a confessor judges and, in Christ’s name, does not forgive.

When we ask God to forgive our serious sins, they are forgiven on the condition that we honestly resolve to go confess them to a priest when we have an opportunity.

It is not reasonable to suspect every sin of possibly being a serious sin. For it to be a serious sin, we need to realize that it is a serious sin, and then give full consent. We also need to properly inform our conscience, so that it does not become weak and make an excuse for us for something a reasonable person would call a serous matter.

Having said all that, there will always be some doubtful matters, and that is why we need to go to a good confessor. Some confessors may judge more severely than others, but once confessed and forgiven, you need not ever confess that matter again.

Let’s face it, we can never be 100% certain of anything. For example, the waitress who served you in the restaurant might have put poison in the food. But in 99.999999% of the cases, we correctly judge that the food is safe to eat. God does not expect us to do what is not humanly possible.

I hope that is helpful. May God bless you.

 

[francisca]

Ziggamafu:

so how do we KNOW (since things such as these, which weigh the destiny of your eternal soul) when just confessing to God and asking Him for forgiveness is enough? How do we KNOW where the line is to be drawn to go to the priest? Is it necessary to confess to a priest as well as to God privately for every sin to be forgiven? I know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other and I believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation; but is going to confession necessary for getting the sin forgiven, or is it something encouraged by God to merely make us feel better by physically confirming what has already taken place on a private basis between you and God (forgiveness)?

Sacrament of reconciliation does not place priest in the middle between the penitent and God. Priest is nothing but representative of God so that a penitent receive absolution and penitention. Pardon comes from God alone. So yes, our relationship with God is more important than “our action” of confessing sin.

Suppose a penitent is not really contrite, so as to say that his action of confessing sin is a merely “payment” for the sins he never regret, then no pardon will ever be granted by God.

Confessing our sins is minimal in following God. What matter most is our relationship with Him.

Because if one “confessing sins” and stop there, then it does not matter so much at all. Really. Because sooner or later sin still can get the better of us again. But what makes sin cannot get the better of us anymore is THE SPIRIT (Romans 8).

But to tell you the truth, this the last teaching (about Holy Spirit) is not very popular in catholic church (Even though it is backed with church documents from church fathers). It is only getting around the “catholic charismatic” circle. And this group is often get opposition even among priests. Some priests are charismatic. But many of them are not. So this charismatic thing in the catholic church, although approved by Rome, often get a lot of opposition everywhere. We get accusations of being “protestants”, “liberal”, etc. But actually we are only being ecumenical, and we seek what is TRUE under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

So there… you try to figure it out yourself whats going on. In many times I have considered moving to other church because of resistants in the catholic church itself. And indeed many charismatic members who has problems with other groups in the church finaly move to other churches not because they believe catholic church is wrong, but because they could not stand the “tension” anymore. The tension is even greater because there are many anti-catholic from the other site too. The issue of unity of the body really get challenge from inside and out.

Because once we know how to worship God in Spirit and in Truth, then we realize that God the Holy Spirit guide all of His Churches. This Holy Spirit is the one that makes us similar to each other, because : one baptism, one spirit, one body of Christ. We really believe that although there are many members (and differences) but one Body.

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

May God the Holy Spirit guide us all.

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

Dear Ziggamafu,

It’s not true that any “matter” can be grave. Taking a penny that was left as a tip for a waitress is not grave matter. Not holding the door open for a woman is not grave matter. At the same time, where grave matter ends and begins is not entirely clear. A confessor/spiritual director should assist penitents in exploring this problem since the gravity of a particular act can vary according to the circumstances surrounding it. (Taking $100 dollors from Bill Gates is not grave matter. Taking $100 from a homeless mother of four might be…)

As far as how a person "KNOW"s–sometimes we don’t know and when that is the case, we should head to confession. Then, when a person is absolved of sins, he is objectively forgiven even though his contrition might be imperfect or he might be lacking in some other way. He knows he is forgiven. It is a matter of FAITH that this is what happens, though… At a certain point in the life of a Christian, “knowing” goes out the window and believing, trusting, hoping and loving take its place.

THis is all part of our formation of conscience…

 

[twf]

I’d just like to add that the priest who told you not to worry about masturbation and lust is gravely wrong! The Church teaches that masturbation is a grave matter, and the Church and Jesus teach us that entertaining lustful thoughts is as well; however, the circumstances determine the graveness as well. I do not believe that if an attractive woman walks by and you briefly have a few lustful thoughts that you are necessarily committed mortal sin…the circumstances were difficult, you did not give your full consent of the will, but lustful thoughts can become mortal. If, though, you knowingly allow yourself into such a situation, then it may be grave. We must pray regularly and work to suppress lustful thoughts as soon as they creep up.

Read Matthew 5:27-29…Jesus tells us that lustful thoughts is adultery in our hearts.
Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes. (CCC#2351). This does not explicitly say that lust is a grave sin, but it is strongly implied, as it lists it in the “Offenses against chasity” section…and as a way to break the sixth commandment (which is grave). I think if you read the context, it would seem that they are telling us that lust is grave (which Jesus already did in His Sermon on the Mount).

As for Masturbation, the priest was very very wrong, and perhaps you should respectfully point this out to him, as he may have already led many astray in this serious issue:
*By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.*
CCC#2352 which can be found at usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm
(It is important to consider the last sentence of the paragraph…which also applies to lustful thoughts, I’d say).

We must persevere with prayer, prayer, and prayer. It does not help matters to be consumed with worry of lust and masturbation, but we must be on guard…Satan wishes to use these to lure us into mortal sin. Like I said, I do not believe (and my pastor says the same thing) that every time lustful thoughts creep up for a moment you have fallen into mortal sin, but if you knowingly continue on with those lustful thoughts, or are knowingly at fault for putting yourself into the situation that induces these thoughts, then it can very well be grave. When lust creeps us, I recommend you pray a Hail Mary. Our Mother can help us with this problem as well. Or if it is a particularly hard case, sometimes it helps for me to command the lust to leave in the name of Jesus Christ…in those cases, I feel that a spirit of lust (that is, a demon) is tempting me.

 

[twf]

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.
7 Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded. (James 4:6-8 ASV)

10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul;
12 having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. (1 Peter 2:10-12 ASV). (The lusts of the flesh extend beyond sexual lust, to all ungodly things the flesh, or the fallen nature, lust after).

 

[Ziggamafu]

So when is an Act of Contrition enough? How do you conclusively know? What does an A.O.C. cover that needs not be covered by Confession? Are the A.O.C.'s even necessary, then?

A Deacon I know told me that sexual sins are “the least of the sins” and that things like masturbation are “the least of the least” and that this is the view promulgated by our current Pope. This seems contradictory to the CCC, which says something to the effect of masturbation being a grave matter…

By no means throughout this entire post have I been talking about merely sexual sins. I’ve been talking about passing by a begger on the street, for one. Or always going at least a few miles over the speed limit. Or not tithing in a few months. Or taking communion at a Protestant church.

If mortal sins are as easily committed as the responses make them out, as common, and are as easily overlooked, then it would seem that “scruples” would be a good thing or at the very least there should be such a thing as 24 hour Confession access and once a week would not be enough for anyone…

Everyone here has helped a lot and I’m not trying to re-open a can of worms, but…
Thanks.

 

[Almeria]

I know where you’re coming from, Ziggamafu. I’ve seen many people on these boards talk about having to go to confession often to confess mortal sins. I’ve been slightly confused at that myself, since I always thought that it was hard to do a mortal sin. They’ve gotten me questioning what is and what is not grave matter, because I think that may be where the issue lies.

To answer your last post, these are my opinions. An Act of Contrition, specifically the one said publically during Mass, is enough to forgive venial sins. I believe one of my theology professors said that there were actually 3 places in the Mass when venial sins are forgiven (the AoC, and I forget the other two–one was either during Concecration or at Communion, I think). You only need to go to Confession for venial sins if you want spiritual guidance on avoiding the sins in the future. If you were not sure if a sin was mortal or venial it’s most likely venial–you didn’t have the full knowledge, so it wouldn’t have fallen under mortal–, but better to go to the priest so you can know better for next time. Confession also gives you graces to not sin any more, so it is good to go, even if you’re “only” confessing venial sins.

I personally don’t think you can be scrupulous on mortal sins. If you’re going to confession daily for mortal sins, your problem isn’t going to be scrupulousity–it is whatever is causing you to repeatedly do those sins. You’re talking a much more serious issue than scrupulousity at that point.

Passing a beggar on the street–by itself, not a sin. If you are currently tithing, and even doing other charity work, not giving money to a panhandler is not a sin. Money may not be the best help for the beggar, anyway–it may be better to tell him some places where he can get help. Kicking the beggar, or otherwise being rude, would be a sin, of course. You can’t help everyone–you can just do your part.

Going over the speed limit–well, it is a sin, so is violating any other traffic regulations. The reasons for speeding are the factors in what makes it a grave sin or a venial sin. Speeding to avoid a collision with someone, for instance, isn’t a sin, as long as you back down as soon as it is safe again. If you don’t pay attention to the speedometer and creep up above, you’re looking more at a venial sin–you’re not concentrating, and not paying attention to what you are doing. Consistently going above the speed limit (i.e., setting the cruise at 70 in a 65 zone) is a grave sin, and really, a mortal sin. It is a flagrant violation of a just law. Every time you pass a speed limit sign you know that what you are doing is wrong; no bones about it. When you are purposely and actively being unsafe hurling a half ton of steel in a manner that affects you, your passengers, and others on the road, you’re skirting with murder and sinning. Catholics should be the best drivers on the road.

Not tithing in a few months–depends on your reasons, but really, you can at least give a dollar. Taking communion at a Protestant church is wrong, and with very few exceptions, should be a grave matter.