Greek or Russian Orthodox?

[Alexander_Roman]

Dearest of Friends,

Just a few points here . . .

The Ukrainian Catholic Church does indeed accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM and BOTH Latin and Byzantine expressions of this exist side by side in the UGCC. There is a UGCC Cathedral to the Immaculate Conception in the U.S.

Devotion to the IC was also prevalent among Orthodox Ruthenians in the 16th and 17th centuries which also had Brotherhoods of the IC which were Orthodox . . . There was and is an Akathist to the Immaculate Conception that one will still find in Orthodox akathist collections and of course in UGCC collections.

As for Purgatory, while you don’t hear much about it in UGCC parishes nowadays, the fact remains that it was accepted by the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev, St Peter Mohyla in his Catechism. The UGCC catechism will give an Eastern “Take” on this, but most UGCCers I know up here would be in shock if someone told them their church doesn’t accept the IC or purgatory . . . There are individual parishes that are very Eastern however.

There is nothing wrong by going to visit a Russian or Greek Orthodox church. They have the full Eastern Divine Liturgy in a way most UGCC and other parishes can only dream of having one day.

The term “Catholic” is in the full title of the Orthodox Church and, frankly, I don’t see what “Catholic” which refers to the Eucharistic model that the whole Church is present in its part etc. has to do with the Papacy. The Orthodox Church never gave up this title after the East-West schism solidified.

The Eastern Churches have used the term “Catholic” for as long as the Roman Church has. Apart from the issue of the papacy and eccesiology, it is simply unjust to tell the Orthodox that “you can’t use our term ‘Catholic’ because you don’t have the Pope.”

They can and do use “Catholic” and see it in the Eucharistic context of the Church.

And as for the Roman See - it truly does accept the Russian Orthodox Church especially as a valid and true Church.

So much so, that whenever the Ukrainian Catholic Church, a church of martyrs and confessors for loyalty to Rome, wants to move on something - Rome will often tell it to cease and desist for fear that it will offend the ROC (ie. patriarchate and also the right to expand its sphere of influence outside of western Ukraine).

This shows better than any argument can that Rome is not only in favour of Russian Orthodoxy, it values it more than the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

So when you go to a Russian Orthodox parish as Roman Catholics, you should feel right at home!

Alex

 

[MrPip]

Dearest of Friends,

Just a few points here . . .

The Ukrainian Catholic Church does indeed accept the Immaculate Conception of the BVM and BOTH Latin and Byzantine expressions of this exist side by side in the UGCC. There is a UGCC Cathedral to the Immaculate Conception in the U.S.

Devotion to the IC was also prevalent among Orthodox Ruthenians in the 16th and 17th centuries which also had Brotherhoods of the IC which were Orthodox . . . There was and is an Akathist to the Immaculate Conception that one will still find in Orthodox akathist collections and of course in UGCC collections.

As for Purgatory, while you don’t hear much about it in UGCC parishes nowadays, the fact remains that it was accepted by the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev, St Peter Mohyla in his Catechism. The UGCC catechism will give an Eastern “Take” on this, but most UGCCers I know up here would be in shock if someone told them their church doesn’t accept the IC or purgatory . . . There are individual parishes that are very Eastern however.

There is nothing wrong by going to visit a Russian or Greek Orthodox church. They have the full Eastern Divine Liturgy in a way most UGCC and other parishes can only dream of having one day.

The term “Catholic” is in the full title of the Orthodox Church and, frankly, I don’t see what “Catholic” which refers to the Eucharistic model that the whole Church is present in its part etc. has to do with the Papacy. The Orthodox Church never gave up this title after the East-West schism solidified.

The Eastern Churches have used the term “Catholic” for as long as the Roman Church has. Apart from the issue of the papacy and eccesiology, it is simply unjust to tell the Orthodox that “you can’t use our term ‘Catholic’ because you don’t have the Pope.”

They can and do use “Catholic” and see it in the Eucharistic context of the Church.

And as for the Roman See - it truly does accept the Russian Orthodox Church especially as a valid and true Church.

So much so, that whenever the Ukrainian Catholic Church, a church of martyrs and confessors for loyalty to Rome, wants to move on something - Rome will often tell it to cease and desist for fear that it will offend the ROC (ie. patriarchate and also the right to expand its sphere of influence outside of western Ukraine).

This shows better than any argument can that Rome is not only in favour of Russian Orthodoxy, it values it more than the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

So when you go to a Russian Orthodox parish as Roman Catholics, you should feel right at home!

Alex

I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say they’d “feel right at home”. Most Orthodox parishes, especially Russian ones (even more especially ROCOR ones) will not let them partake of the sacraments, including Holy Communion. And if they are Latin Catholics the liturgy will be very different from what they know.

 

[ClamDigger]

He was late for the burial, not the Assumption. When he arrived he visited the tomb where he received the vision of Our Lady’s body being assumed into heaven and she dropped her girdle to him as his proof of the Assumption.

Oh, okay! Thank you for clearing that up for me!

 

[dvdjs]

No, I’m saying that the tradition is conclusive on the death while the dogma on Assumption tries to be sly by not being conclusive on it. They opened up the language enough that some people are led to believe that she was assumed into heaven prior to death, similar to Elijah and Enoch.

What is this “tradition” that you speak of? You are specific on details not in the Byzantine services and the synaxarion? I may be wrong but I don’t know of anything in liturgical tradition that speaks of how long Mary was “dead” before being translated to heaven. I don;t see the point of speculation one way or another on this matter, and have a hard time understanding why people get dogmatic about it

 

[Cecilianus]

I was curious if the Sacraments in either of these Orthodox Churches are valid and accepted by the Roman Catholic Church? My husband and I (both Roman Catholics) would like to check out the Orthodox Churches but do not want to change our theological beliefs, but would like to return to the old practices before Vatican II if possible. I had called a Russian Orthodox Church this morning and the lady there couldn’t answer my questions except we would have to go to confession to receive their Sacraments. This wouldn’t work for us because we are not sorry, nor sinners, for being Roman Catholic. We just want to check out the Orthodox Church if it’s accepted by the Pope.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I also became an Eastern Catholic because I wanted to return to the pre-Vatican II tradition. I ended up falling head over heels in love with the East and not wanting to even go back to the Latin Mass if it meant not being able to go to Divine Liturgy on the same morning.

If you go to an Eastern Catholic church, you should be aware that the tradition of the East is different than the tradition of the West. So while you may feel more at home in a more “Latinized” Ukrainian Catholic parish, please be aware that this is actually not traditional for us, and is more or less our equivalent of the “Novus Ordo”. Traditions you may be attached to like kneeling on Sundays, clerical celibacy, and statues are actually canonically forbidden for us, and should be in order to preserve the integrity of our Rite. While they are completely fitting in the Roman Rite and should be preserved with zeal, they are actually completely out of place in the East, and trying to introduce them causes huge problems and abuses. It might take a while to get used to two completely different praxes being both the Traditional way of doing things.

Unfortunately, many Eastern Catholic churches are full of these “Latinizations” or abuses.

Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox hold to exactly the same faith, which is why I identify as “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” The difference is we accept the Orthodoxy of Roman Catholics, while Eastern Orthodox hold that Roman Catholics are apostates. The only problem with the Orthodox - which is why you are not permitted by canon law to receive communion from them unless you are in danger of death - is their rejection of Catholicism and their schism, which is based almost entirely on (sometimes willful) ignorance of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. This can be a sticky problem because the language the East and West uses is completely different. When an Orthodox says he rejects Original Sin, he conceives of it completely differently than when a Catholic says he accepts it (Roman Catholics don’t actually believe in inherited guilt). The East and the West use different models or metaphors for theological discourse, and at times it can appear that the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics reject dozens of Roman Catholic dogmas. We don’t; but it can take a long time to get adjusted to thinking in both languages and seeing how they teach the same things.

Orthodox sacraments are completely valid, and their faith is accepted by Rome - just not their rejection of our faith. You can fill your Sunday obligation at an Orthodox church, but you cannot receive Holy Communion there because they are unfortunately not in communion with us. Please pray for the schism to end; we need them.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am amazed, and dazed

that someone would not have suggested,

to restate the title of your thread

is a dead end

To assume

That all Orthodox are Russian or Greek, as you have hopefully found out
By the sound out

You need to do a bit more research, about those

you can learn a bunch from

without labeling them as one or the other-

They would claim rightfully that you are dismissive

of all the evidence and that is hard to swallow

When your premise is hallow

Either or I insist!

One is right, one can not continue to persist

You both give reason for pause

to those who seek the cause

And you are both too blind to see it

 

[Cecilianus]

I am amazed, and dazed

that someone would not have suggested,

to restate the title of your thread

is a dead end

To assume

That all Orthodox are Russian or Greek, as you have hopefully found out
By the sound out

You need to do a bit more research, about those

you can learn a bunch from

without labeling them as one or the other-

They would claim rightfully that you are dismissive

of all the evidence and that is hard to swallow

When your premise is hallow

Either or I insist!

One is right, one can not continue to persist

You both give reason for pause

to those who seek the cause

And you are both too blind to see it

They are the two largest churches, however, and the other national churches often distinguish themselves by whom they are in communion with in the incessant hegemony struggles between Russia and Greece over control of the smaller churches. For example, the Orthodox Church of America and the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Church are both originally Ruthenian-American in ethnicity and they coexist in the same place (America), but the former is recognized as autocephalous by the Russians and the latter by the Greeks. Ultimately Orthodoxy can be carved up between those churches in the Greek camp and those in the Russian. I don’t intend any disrespect to Orthodox who may happen to be ACROD or OCA or some “smaller” church, but it is a bit amusing and depressing for us Catholics, united under a common shepherd who keeps us from engaging in selfish power struggles like this, to see the political maneuverings and disunity among those separated from the See of Peter.

 

[Madaglan]

They are the two largest churches, however, and the other national churches often distinguish themselves by whom they are in communion with in the incessant hegemony struggles between Russia and Greece over control of the smaller churches. For example, the Orthodox Church of America and the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Church are both originally Ruthenian-American in ethnicity and they coexist in the same place (America), but the former is recognized as autocephalous by the Russians and the latter by the Greeks. Ultimately Orthodoxy can be carved up between those churches in the Greek camp and those in the Russian. I don’t intend any disrespect to Orthodox who may happen to be ACROD or OCA or some “smaller” church, but it is a bit amusing and depressing for us Catholics, united under a common shepherd who keeps us from engaging in selfish power struggles like this, to see the political maneuverings and disunity among those separated from the See of Peter.

While there are tensions between the Russians and the Greeks, communion is maintained. The greater tension in the past century has been amongst the Russians themselves (ROCOR and Moscow Patriarchate) due to the effects of communism.

With no offense to the Eastern Catholics or to the Pope of Rome, I find your language of carving up Orthodoxy somewhat ironic given the history.

 

[5Loaves]

Christos voskrese!

I had called a Russian Orthodox Church this morning and the lady there couldn’t answer my questions except we would have to go to confession to receive their Sacraments. This wouldn’t work for us because we are not sorry, nor sinners, for being Roman Catholic. We just want to check out the Orthodox Church if it’s accepted by the Pope.
Kathy

There are Orthodox Churches where a Catholic is received into the Orthodox Church by Confession and Holy Eucharist. Other Orthodox receive Catholics into the Orthodox Church by Chrismation, and others receive them by Baptism and Chrismation. She may have been referring to this… or not…

ClamDigger provided you a link to locations of the Roman Rite Extraordinary Form in the US and Canada. For locations of an Eastern Catholic Church or Oriental Catholic Church see Find-A-Parish → By Location and Find-A-Parish Start-A-Parish for smaller mission parishes.

I personally have no problem with supporting anyone who finds their true home in an Orthodox Church. I do think it’s entirely different to be drawn into something as opposed to someone fleeing the problems they experience in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. The latter rarely are at home with the very different praxis and sacramental, liturgical, theological view of the East.

We fairly often at my parish get visitors from a local Latin Church which has been celebrating the Extraordinary Form of the Mass daily since 2005. They and other visitors from Latin Churches which celebrate only the Ordinary Form enjoy the beauty of our Divine Liturgy but often find standing during the entire Sunday Liturgy uncomfortable, especially during what they consider to be the act of consecration and after receiving Holy Eucharist. Married clergy is also often uncomfortable to them.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say they’d “feel right at home”. Most Orthodox parishes, especially Russian ones (even more especially ROCOR ones) will not let them partake of the sacraments, including Holy Communion. And if they are Latin Catholics the liturgy will be very different from what they know.

I was being facetious . . .

Alex

 

[MrPip]

I was being facetious . . .

Alex

Oh. For lack of smiley faces, etc., I couldn’t tell. But then, if you look at my profile, you’ll see that I am as dumb as a box of rocks . Or may you already noticed…

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Oh. For lack of smiley faces, etc., I couldn’t tell. But then, if you look at my profile, you’ll see that I am as dumb as a box of rocks . Or may you already noticed…

Not at all! You are a deeply spiritual and discerning individual. It was I who was being dumb by not using the smiley faces (which I usually overdo anyway )

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Montalo]

Orthodox sacraments are completely valid, and their faith is accepted by Rome - just not their rejection of our faith. You can fill your Sunday obligation at an Orthodox church, but you cannot receive Holy Communion there because they are unfortunately not in communion with us. Please pray for the schism to end; we need them.

the Romanist church does not object to receiving the Mysteries in the Orthodox Church, but the Orthodox object because the Church views the romanist faith as heretical, and outside of the Church

 

[dcointin]

the Romanist church does not object to receiving the Mysteries in the Orthodox Church, but the Orthodox object because the Church views the romanist faith as heretical, and outside of the Church

As a brother Orthodox, I would like to ask you not to use terms like “Romanist”, which are not used by Catholics to describe themselves and are understood as pejoratives, and don’t contribute to the topic being discussed. God bless,

Don

 

[Montalo]

As a brother Orthodox, I would like to ask you not to use terms like “Romanist”, which are not used by Catholics to describe themselves and are understood as pejoratives, and don’t contribute to the topic being discussed. God bless,

Don

my apologies, I meant no offense.

 

[StrawberryJam]

the Romanist church does not object to receiving the Mysteries in the Orthodox Church, but the Orthodox object because the Church views the romanist faith as heretical, and outside of the Church

The Catholic Church does not object to your mysterious Orthodox types that do recieve the Eucharist from her- but do urge them to really really think about it first. As if that stops them when they do it anyway.

The above is not evidence of anything.
anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Neither is use of prejoratives.