Greek Philosophy - Basis of Catholicism?

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What about Confutionist logic, buddhist logic, black logic, hindhu logic?
the got tsunamied by the Greek Logic?
I don’t know, what about Christian logic? As far as I know there’s no such thing as Christian logic. The Greeks simply got good at pursuing truth with no agenda, and by no other means, than by the use of logic/reason.
 
What about Confutionist logic, buddhist logic, black logic, hindhu logic?
the got tsunamied by the Greek Logic?
That is interesting cause I did not limit the discussion between Greek philosophy and Christian teaching - in my mind - to logic. So that raises an interesting learning point for me…because was there logic developed in the same manner as the Greeks in the Buddhist, Confucious, Black, Asian or Hindu “logic” or can those latter references be referred to as philosophy without the logic piece?

That would make a significant departure from my initial thinking on this…look forward to peoples thoughts on this…If we can say that Greek philosophy (minus the logic part) can be a valid tool to explain, contextualize or rationalize faith articles of our chuch, why cannot we use other philosophical basis (i.e. aboriginal or indigenous world view, legends, oral traditions, etc). to contribute towards a more general human wide understanding and appreciation of the Jesus’ and the church’s teaching (one and the same)…? Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (aboriginal architypical concept of “transformation” or “conversion”…)
 
It seems that Socrates and Aristotle are the two philosophers that early Christian fathers (and mothers I guess) took from in developing their doctrines which the church adopted and trusted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. My question is why would we not be as open to looking at catholic teaching in relation to other philosophical reference points (i.e. Asian philosophy, etc.)?
Somebody earlier said your premise is incorrect, but that person is wrong. You are correct, trickster, that Aristotle is of the utmost importance to the intellectual tradition of the Church.

As for the relationship between Catholic teaching and Asian philosophy, there are many Catholics who do explore this area. If you are interested in looking into this sort of thing, a good place to start might be with Father Kennedy, a Jesuit priest and Zen roshi of the White Plum lineage: kennedyzen.tripod.com/

You ask an intriguing question, I think. It is good to keep an open mind.
 
The Catholic Church is founded in Christ - not philosophy.
I don’t think anyone is disputing that, however the Catechism does state that: “The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason.]”
 
Somebody earlier said your premise is incorrect, but that person is wrong. You are correct, trickster, that Aristotle is of the utmost importance to the intellectual tradition of the Church.

As for the relationship between Catholic teaching and Asian philosophy, there are many Catholics who do explore this area. If you are interested in looking into this sort of thing, a good place to start might be with Father Kennedy, a Jesuit priest and Zen roshi of the White Plum lineage: kennedyzen.tripod.com/

You ask an intriguing question, I think. It is good to keep an open mind.
Thanks Stanczyk on the reference to Fr. Kennedy and Zen Roshi (roshi of the White Plum) will be a new concept for me too!

Cheerz

Bruce
(Trickster)
 
Somebody earlier said your premise is incorrect, but that person is wrong.
I am trying to make a very fine and delicate point here. I have not been convinced by the arguments presented here and so I firmly remain in my position. I have been trying to state that the Catholic Church did not derive her articles of faith from philosophy. I think the point needs to be made because with all the vague verbiage people will end up thinking that syncritism is fine and it is not.** I can assure you that a lot of Catholics will have problems praying and worshiping to the ‘Sundance Chief’**. The origin of our faith is Our Lord Jesus Christ and so there would be a problem with how Jesus as understood by the Catholic Church would be understood through a spirituality that would recognize him as ‘Sundance Chief’. We already know who Jesus is, it is not as though a new characteristic that sounds good can be added.

Tricster:
“It seems that Socrates and Aristotle are the two philosophers that early Christian fathers (and mothers I guess) took from in developing their doctrines which the church adopted and trusted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. My question is why would we not be as open to looking at catholic teaching in relation to other philosophical reference points (i.e. Asian philosophy, etc.)?”

The Church did not derive her doctrines from philosophical deduction. She expressed and exposed them through logic and reasoning. So, it is not the case that a philosophical theory that sounds and looks good will be adopted to the Catholic faith unless it expresses the already existing faith. The Church already has the deposit of faith, she is trying to take this to the world, she is not looking in the world for articles of faith that she can adopt.
 
stanczyk;8659650 said:

I disagree with Father Kennedy. It is incorrect to water down our faith. It is not the case that Buddhism is equivalent to Catholicism. What? So, Our Lord Jesus died for nothing?!? The Buddhist is just as good as Catholicism? I pray that Father Kennedy’s Bishop is keeping a close watch.

Father Kennedy:
“I think the Buddhist and Christian traditions are both magnificent and both give wonderfully poetic metaphorical examples of what is inexpressible,” Kennedy said. "I don’t think the metaphors can be reduced to each other but that makes it all the better. Everything is not reduced to one way of looking at things."Zen master (Catholic Priest) tells curious to embrace a new faith

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Pope John Paul the Great:

“Christian mysticism . . . is not born of a purely negative ‘enlightenment.’ It is not born of an awareness of the evil which exists in man’s attachment to the world through the senses, the intellect, and the spirit. Instead, Christian mysticism is born of the Revelation of the living God.”

Zen is not compatible with Catholicism, it is not better and it is not equal. It is not as Father Kennedy is presenting that Zen and Christian mysticism are two different ways which are just as good. I am sadden by the fact that a Catholic priest is promoting these understandings and ideologies.
 
I disagree with Father Kennedy. It is incorrect to water down our faith. It is not the case that Buddhism is equivalent to Catholicism. What? So, Our Lord Jesus died for nothing?!? The Buddhist is just as good as Catholicism? I pray that Father Kennedy’s Bishop is keeping a close watch.
Keep in mind that the Jesuits are called to thoroughly embrace and study other faiths.

Fr. Kennedy, so far as I understand him, is not watering down the Catholic faith, merely employing Zen as a complementary tradition. Zen Buddhism is not really a religion but a nondogmatic philosophy, different from other Buddhist schools in this way, and as such it is fully compatible with the Catholic Church.

There’s a famous Zen koan, where a Zen monk asks a Zen Master if he has ever heard the Gospel. The master says he hasn’t, so the monk reads to the master from the Beatitudes. The master is very impressed, and when the monk finally reaches the part about the lilies, the master stops him and says, “Whoever said this is surely a Buddha.”
 
Keep in mind that the Jesuits are called to thoroughly embrace and study other faiths.
The Jesuists are not called to 'thoroughly embrace…other faiths".
Fr. Kennedy, so far as I understand him, is not watering down the Catholic faith, merely employing Zen as a complementary tradition. Zen Buddhism is not really a religion but a nondogmatic philosophy, different from other Buddhist schools in this way, and as such it is fully compatible with the Catholic Church.
Even if Zen was a ‘nondogmatic philosophy’ , just because it may be a ‘nondogmatic philosophy’ that looks good does not make it compatible with the Catholic Church -which is exactly the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Zen Buddhism is a kind of mysticism and it is incompatible with the Catholic faith.

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”
Again, this is evidence of a deep desire for a fulfilling and healthy existence for the human race and for the planet. Some of the traditions which flow into New Age are: ancient Egyptian occult practices, Cabbalism, early Christian gnosticism, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, mediaeval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Zen Buddhism, Yoga and so on.(15)

Here is what is “new” about New Age. It is a “syncretism of esoteric and secular elements”.(16) They link into a widely-held perception that the time is ripe for a fundamental change in individuals, in society and in the world. There are various expressions of the need for a shift:

– from Newtonian mechanistic physics to quantum physics;
– from modernity’s exaltation of reason to an appreciation of feeling, emotion and experience (often described as a switch from ‘left brain’ rational thinking to ‘right brain’ intuitive thinking);
– from a dominance of masculinity and patriarchy to a celebration of femininity, in individuals and in society.

In these contexts the term “paradigm shift” is often used. In some cases it is clearly supposed that this shift is not simply desirable, but inevitable. The rejection of modernity underlying this desire for change is not new, but can be described as “a modern revival of pagan religions with a mixture of influences from both eastern religions and also from modern psychology, philosophy, science, and the counterculture that developed in the 1950s and 1960s”.(17) New Age is a witness to nothing less than a cultural revolution, a complex reaction to the dominant ideas and values in western culture, and yet its idealistic criticism is itself ironically typical of the culture it criticizes.

A word needs to be said on the notion of paradigm shift. It was made popular by Thomas Kuhn, an American historian of science, who saw a paradigm as “the entire constellation of beliefs, values, techniques and so on shared by the members of a given community”.(18) When there is a shift from one paradigm to another, it is a question of wholesale transformation of perspective rather than one of gradual development. It really is a revolution, and Kuhn emphasised that competing paradigms are incommensurable and cannot co-exist. So the idea that a paradigm shift in the area of religion and spirituality is simply a new way of stating traditional beliefs misses the point. What is actually going on is a radical change in world- view, which puts into question not only the content but also the fundamental interpretation of the former vision.** Perhaps the clearest example of this, in terms of the relationship between New Age and Christianity, is the total recasting of the life and significance of Jesus Christ. It is impossible to reconcile these two visions. **(19)vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html
 
Even if Zen was a ‘nondogmatic philosophy’ , just because it may be a ‘nondogmatic philosophy’ that looks good does not make it compatible with the Catholic Church -which is exactly the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Zen Buddhism is a kind of mysticism and it is incompatible with the Catholic faith.
And isn’t this the point, though? Greek philosophy* is* compatible with Christianity simply because it utilizes reason and logic, which, by their natures, cannot conflict with faith, and especially when read through the lens of faith?
 
And isn’t this the point, though? Greek philosophy* is* compatible with Christianity simply because it utilizes reason and logic, which, by their natures, cannot conflict with faith, and especially when read through the lens of faith?
Very well said. And I think Eastern philosophical systems are no different than Western ones in this regard.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Father Kennedy:
What are the biggest misconceptions that Zen practitioners and Christians hold about each other’s concept of prayer?
Some Catholics are not trained in contemplative prayer, and sometimes they think they must use words and images. I think it’s a question of ongoing education for them that they experience different types of prayer. On the Buddhist side, many Buddhists believe that Catholics are dualists. Catholics are not Buddhists, but we are not dualists either. It is also true that the highest point of Christian contemplative prayer is not that I know Christ or that I love Christ, but that Christ lives in me. As Zen says, “The Buddha wiggles his toes in my shoes.” This is not dualism.
Is your prayer today different from prayer before your interest in Zen?
Zazen is Catholic prayer for me. Anyone can pay attention. We all must pay attention.
tricycle.com/special-section/interview-with-robert-jinsen-kennedy-roshi
 
And isn’t this the point, though? Greek philosophy* is* compatible with Christianity simply because it utilizes reason and logic, which, by their natures, cannot conflict with faith, and especially when read through the lens of faith?
This is more clear. I think the distinction I have been trying to make is due to our use of the English language. I think the English language can be vague sometimes. This is why in ancient times, the Greek language was preferred because it is more exact than other languages.

It is one thing to state what you have in the above post and another to state that the Catholic Church derived and adopted her doctrines from ancient Greek philosophy. Do you understand the distinction I am trying to make? I think it is an important one. People need to clearly understand that the foundation and origin of the Catholic faith is not philosophy.

I do have to get back to work now. These posts take a long time. It’s amazing how time flies. Have a pleasant day.

Peace,

Abba
 
This is more clear. I think the distinction I have been trying to make is due to our use of the English language. I think the English language can be vague sometimes. This is why in ancient times, the Greek language was preferred because it is more exact than other languages.

It is one thing to state what you have in the above post and another to state that the Catholic Church derived and adopted her doctrines from ancient Greek philosophy. Do you understand the distinction I am trying to make? I think it is an important one. People need to clearly understand that the foundation and origin of the Catholic faith is not philosophy.

I do have to get back to work now. These posts take a long time. It’s amazing how time flies. Have a pleasant day.

Peace,

Abba
Yes, I do understand the distinction. But the distinction I was making was a qualitative one between Greek philosophy and all others.
 
Philosophy is that that has been very well done by the Greek civilisation.

Anyway God has created everything and so everything is able to lead God. In my case (a catholic living in a apatheist world) I can see the seek of love in those girls that go to the disco… but I can’t see seek of love in the way they trample the plan of God being so unchaste like they are… you must to search that that your aboriginal country has of positive, that wich is a way to Divinity and you must to reject all that wich is against… there is not a perfect culture like there is not an Earthly Kingdom of Heaven… you will must anyway reject something from your aboriginal culture… and if something is wrong (like all cultural paradigmes are) it cannot become a philosophy… because the philosophical threads are those where all born from… Do from someting human something divine could be a disaster! (will be)… we are so different to God!

We accept Greek (something) because they have been the best… in a bad world. And more than them is the Scholasticism. Saint Augustin is also important.

Take me more as someone who sympathise with you than as someone you can trust in philosophical affairs.

I am a member of your group! I love it! (If your group is that wich is avocated to create an aboriginal catholicism).

See us.
 
Philosophy is that that has been very well done by the Greek civilisation.

Anyway God has created everything and so everything is able to lead God. In my case (a catholic living in a apatheist world) I can see the seek of love in those girls that go to the disco… but I can’t see seek of love in the way they trample the plan of God being so unchaste like they are… you must to search that that your aboriginal country has of positive, that wich is a way to Divinity and you must to reject all that wich is against… there is not a perfect culture like there is not an Earthly Kingdom of Heaven… you will must anyway reject something from your aboriginal culture… and if something is wrong (like all cultural paradigmes are) it cannot become a philosophy… because the philosophical threads are those where all born from… Do from someting human something divine could be a disaster! (will be)… we are so different to God!

We accept Greek (something) because they have been the best… in a bad world. And more than them is the Scholasticism. Saint Augustin is also important.

Take me more as someone who sympathise with you than as someone you can trust in philosophical affairs.

I am a member of your group! I love it! (If your group is that wich is avocated to create an aboriginal catholicism).

See us.
Yes, nice to hear from you again Archedreamer…I have not been able to keep up with the rich diversity and honest dialouge and responses from all my postings…I need some time to reflet upon things to put a basic paper together that we can discuss and develop in the Aboriginal Catholicism group…but between being off-line for a couple fo week and then catching a computer virus…I have been limited to one hour a day on the computers at our local library…look forward to your thinking…could sink my teeth into some of the above…but I am sure you and I will enjoy an engaged conversation there…when I get caught up with other things…

Cheers

Bruce Ferguson
 
Hello Abba, we are not that far apart in our thinking…so let me address your response below…no one (including myself) is saying that the church derived her teaching from Greek philosophers…that would be a major miscalculation … HOWEVER, you must agree that the early fathers tried to explain the articles of faith in a Hellenistic cultural Roman Empire by using a philosophy that was well known and understood in that ancient world. Greek philosophy was a useful tool in evangelization…did not St. Paul even talk about the Greek’s “God of the Unknown” and use that as a basis of his approach? So I agree with you that the Catholic Church did not derive her articles of faith from philosophy. So we can set that aside, right?
I am trying to make a very fine and delicate point here. I have not been convinced by the arguments presented here and so I firmly remain in my position. I have been trying to state that the Catholic Church did not derive her articles of faith from philosophy.
Abba;8663115:
I think the point needs to be made because with all the vague verbiage people will end up thinking that syncritism is fine and it is not
.** **

I have also said in other threads syncretism is not fine! Syncretism is the creation of a new religion by pulling together elements of two older religions. I am simply saying that if Greek philosophers could be used as tools to elaborate for a Hellenistic Roman community in the early church, then is it not possible to use the communication tools (philosophy, legends, stories, world views, cultural dynamics, etc. and images and positions) to elaborate for an Aboriginal world the ideas of Christianity…and would not Christians benefit from another view that would enhance their basic teachings? So, let’s put that off the table. Syncretism is not fine and I am not promoting that within the conversation of pulling aboriginal philosophy or Native thought into the services of elaborating on Catholic teaching for an aboriginal audience…
I can assure you that a lot of Catholics will have problems praying and worshiping to the ‘Sundance Chief’
. The origin of our faith is Our Lord Jesus Christ and so there would be a problem with how Jesus as understood by the Catholic Church would be understo od through a spirituality that would recognize him as ‘Sundance Chief’. We already know who Jesus is, it is not as though a new characteristic that sounds good can be added. .
Well if you check out sacredpeoples.com/ I can assure you of an equal number of Catholics that will have no problem in praying and worshiping Jesus by honouring and giving him a title from our own culture from a place of humility…I don’t even think Jesus would reject our gift to him. In terms of the Sun Dance Chief thing…I think you might be drawing that from another positng I had going…that other posting was not necessarily to talk about Jesus as a Sun Dance Chief, but rather to show similarities in what Sun Dancers tried to do within a pre-contact cultural understanding and what Jesus did within an eternal context. That was all…

As a personal challenge to you what would you find so offensive about our seeing Jesus as a Sundancer…look up the Diocese of Rapid City in South Dakota, it has images of Jesus as SunDancer and I think you would do yourself a favour by checking that stuff out…because I agree with your leariness to name Jesus whatever we want because we need to make sure that any cultural honours we give to Jesus as a people must be consistent with … in your words…*We already know who Jesus is, it is not as though a new characteristic that sounds good can be addedou *… I agree with you …we would not be adding new characteristics to the essence of Jesus, we would simply be honouring what the Catholic church teaches about Jesus with a symbol or image or title from our own culture…I think you can see the distinction…so let’s put that criticism off the table too…🙂
Tricster\s quote:
“It seems that Socrates and Aristotle are the two philosophers that early Christian fathers (and mothers I guess) took from in developing their doctrines which the church adopted and trusted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. My question is why would we not be as open to looking at catholic teaching in relation to other philosophical reference points (i.e. Asian philosophy, etc.)?”

The Church did not derive her doctrines from philosophical deduction. She expressed and exposed them through logic and reasoning. So, it is not the case that a philosophical theory that sounds and looks good will be adopted to the Catholic faith unless it expresses the already existing faith. The Church already has the deposit of faith, she is trying to take this to the world, she is not looking in the world for articles of faith that she can adopt.
Yes, you nailed it right on the head…we are simply taking from Native Thought through the same kind of intellectual rigour within theological frameworks to achieve the same thing Greek philosophy did originally as a tool. So I have definitely been talking about an Aboriginal theological framework (which can include taking from our symbols to honour Jesus with new titles, etc.) that expresses the already existing faith…we are agreed. And in her job of taking Jesus’ message to the world…the church has already drawn from our culture to do her job…so where is the controversy?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal |concept for Transformation)
 
I always thought that many of the greek gods occasionally consorted with human women to produce offspring? These gods may have been myths, but a myth is created from some kind of psychology or philosophy (as well as possibly from hallucinogenic influences). If God planned as we believe for all humanity to worship and be saved by Him, perhaps he used his personal, bodily relationship with the Hebrews for the reception of his Son, but used the mind of humanity, which is clearly Greco Roman, for the remaining work of his salvation. All of the Apostles were incredulous at Jesus’ command to celebrate the Eucharist, not having the ‘foggiest’ what it could mean to have human flesh to eat. Yet this very idea implies at first blush a ‘figurative’ type of look on things - since figures are the best way for people to understand a mystery such as transubstantiation. Finally, what was in ancient times and to many now an idea only, that of a person becoming God (for a time) in sharing his Eucharistic body, might have been best understood by the dramatists of Greco (Roman) theater, ‘participants’ (note the Aristotlean verbiage) who were no doubt familiar with taking on roles of totally imaginary characters. The assumption of personas and roles is felt throughtout Plato’s dialogues also, and leads to interesting speeches and discoveries in that context. The doctrine of unity of church and faith (one bread, one body) would also have been of great political expediency to a pragmatic culture like the Hellenistic Romans, who were becoming too expansive and probably starting to realize they could not maintain their Empire by conventional force forever.

All this is NOT to say or imply blasphemy, but to reaffirm that God (in his unsurpassable wisdom) chose well the TIME of his sacrifice. “In the fullness of time…”
 
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