Gregorian Chants: Another Liber Usualis Questions

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William777

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Greetings, Brethren:

This is a follow up question to my first post on the Liber Usualis - except it comes at it from a different perspective.

My question here and now is…

Suppose I am browsing around the web, or maybe just in church and hear a chant, then how can I locate it in the either the Liber Usualis or perhaps the Graduale Romanum?

Here’s what I mean. Take the (very popular) CD put out by the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos as an example. Now the songs on that CD are as follows:
  1. Puer Natus Est Nobis: Intriot (Modo VII)
  2. Os Iusti: Gradual (Modo I)
  3. Christus Factus Est Pro Nobis: Gradual (Modo V)
  4. Mandatum Novum Do Vobis: Antiphonal And Psalm 132 (Modo III)
  5. Media Vita In Morte Sumus: Responsorio (Modo IV)
  6. Alleluia, Beatus Vir Qui Suffert: (Modo I)
  7. Spiritus Domini: Introit (Modo VIII)
  8. Improperium: Offertorio (Modo VIII)
  9. Laetatus Sum: Gradual (Modo VII)
  10. Kyrie XI - A: (Modo I)
  11. Puer Natus In Bethlehem: Ritmo (Modo I)
  12. Jacta Cogitatum Tuum: Gradual (Modo VII)
  13. Verbum Caro Factum Est: Responsorio (Modo VII)
  14. Genuit Puerpera Regem: Antiphonal And Psalm 99 (Modo II)
  15. Occuli Omnium: Gradual (Modo VII)
  16. Ave Mundi Spes Maria: Sequenza (Modo I)
  17. Kyrie Fons Bonitatis: Trope (Modo III)
  18. Veni Sancte Spiritus: Sequenza (Modo I)
  19. Hosanna Filio David: Antiphonal (Modo VII)
My question is - how do I find those chants to sing along with them? (I’m assuming they are in the Liber Usualis and/or Graduale Roman).

The same holds true for songs I sometimes hear at mass. I’ll like the music, and then I’ll get the leaflet for the mass, but it will usually have very scant info - much like those listed in the CD songlist above. Like, for instance, I’ll hear the Pange Lingua Gloriosi or maybe the Sancta Maria… or here’s one I really, really like on YouTube - The Ave Maris Stella !

I wish I had a way of tracing these songs back to their literal roots, so I could work on them all the better.

Anyway, please let me know if you can help me to do as such!

Thank you!
Blessings,

wm
 
Have you, er, tried the index?

Several of those are not in the LU; and the monks of Santo Domingo de Silos, being Dominicans, do not sing everything in accordance with the Vatican or Solesmes editions. But let’s start with a couple that are and walk you through how to find them.

The Index (labeled Alphabetical Table) starts on page 69*. It is broken up by function (all the Introits are together, all the Tracts are together), and then the listings are alphabetical by incipit (the “incipit” is what we call the first couple of words of a chant). So Track 1 (Puer Natus Est Nobis) is an Introit, thus we look at the table of Introits, and on page 70* we see the listing “7 Puer natus est . . . . . 408”. The 7 means it is in mode 7, and sure enough, the CD track listing had said “Modo VII”. Just as sure, you will find it on page 408.

Now let’s hunt down track 7, “Alleluia, Beatus Vir Qui Suffert (Modo 1),” which happens to be one of my all-time favorite alleluias. You will see that the listing of “Alleluia Verses” begins on page 72*, and right there you’ll find “1 Beatus vir qui suffert . . . . . 1202.” Yup, page 1202.

Okay, next let’s try to find track 5, “Media Vita In Morte Sumus: Responsorio (Modo IV).” The LU’s index has listings of responsories on pp. 75* and 91* – but it’s not there. In fact, it’s nowhere in the book, because it is not sung at Mass or any of the hours which are contained in the Liber. Next step: start Googling, or else download all of the books listed under “Musical Settings in Latin” from the CMAA’s website and start scouring their indices (most of which are set up similarly to the LU’s). I regret spoiling what could be a fun search, but I would point you toward the book called “Mass and Vespers (1957).”

Then there are things that are very hard to find in books or online – for instance, troped Kyries (or other parts of the Ordinary), like track 18. Troping (inserting extra words into) the Ordinary was banned by the Council of Trent (not really; it was more like the Spirit of Trent), so these generally just don’t get printed in liturgical books period. That particular one happens to be in Cantus Selecti ad Benedictionem (also available from CMAA), but this is pure coincidence.

Oh, P.S.: The parts of the Ordinary are not listed in the LU’s index. But they start on page 11 and run for the following 80 pages or so; not too difficult to hunt through.
 
Hey Mark,

Thank you for this information. 👍

I hadn’t looked at the Index, a.k.a. Alphabetical Table, but I don’t think I would have found it without your guidance. The LU actually has two Alphabetical Tables, and - even following your advice - I had to use the Acrobat Search before I found I was on the wrong table to get to the right one. So thank you again, and please bear with me as a newbie.

Yes, I guess it could be a fun search, but sometimes I just want to get right to it. I’ll try following up on that link to Musica Sacra, which I also hadn’t known about. Am going to see if I can locate the Ave Maris Stella score somehow now.

I’ll probably have a lot more questions though, so I hope I’m not putting anyone to too much trouble in asking.

I thank you again for all this help. You’re answering questions I’ve had (and been unable to answer myself) for a long time.

Blessings,
🙂

wm
 
Ah, yes – well the other alphabetical table, which starts on page (75), is just for that section of proper feasts for the USA. And then there is the Alphabetical Table of Feasts on page 96*, too. I’ve never understood why they couldn’t have come up with at least a marginally less confusing layout than the one they wound up with, but I assume it has to do with adding chunks over time to a leaner, earlier version of the work and not wanting to mess up references to the earlier edition too badly.

As for Ave Maris Stella, it is a vesper hymn, so you’ll find it in the “Hymns” section of the index. There exist lots and lots of tones for it (just as for other things like the Pange Lingua), but the most famous is the one listed first in the LU. Very beautiful.

And if you have any other questions, ask away!
 
MarkThompson said:
Ah, yes – well the other alphabetical table, which starts on page (75), is just for that section of proper feasts for the USA. And then there is the Alphabetical Table of Feasts on page 96*, too. I’ve never understood why they couldn’t have come up with at least a marginally less confusing layout than the one they wound up with, but I assume it has to do with adding chunks over time to a leaner, earlier version of the work and not wanting to mess up references to the earlier edition too badly.

As for Ave Maris Stella, it is a vesper hymn, so you’ll find it in the “Hymns” section of the index. There exist lots and lots of tones for it (just as for other things like the Pange Lingua), but the most famous is the one listed first in the LU. Very beautiful.

And if you have any other questions, ask away!
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Ok, a variation on this question. Father has recruited me into the schola and choir and I’d like to be able to have audio of all the propers, etc. Is there a CD set which has these? Our choir director has them for his tablet but does not have the CDs and is a bit cryptic about where these came from. I found an expensive set on Angelus Press’ website:

angeluspress.org/Audio-Video/Chant-CD-Vol-1-Advent

This is one of a set of 7 and I thought because of the price this might be it.

Any experience with these or any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Charles
 
TheExorcist said:
Ok, a variation on this question. Father has recruited me into the schola and choir and I’d like to be able to have audio of all the propers, etc. Is there a CD set which has these? Our choir director has them for his tablet but does not have the CDs and is a bit cryptic about where these came from. I found an expensive set on Angelus Press’ website:

angeluspress.org/Audio-Video/Chant-CD-Vol-1-Advent

This is one of a set of 7 and I thought because of the price this might be it.

Any experience with these or any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Charles
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Yes, easy: this site is (mostly?) complete for Sundays and holy days. Very useful.
 
These posts and links are great. 👍

I have to admit… I can read piano and organ music, but singing plainsong four line staves can be a bit difficult to interpret…

So… what I wanted to do was use more of the Suzuki method to get the chants down by ear first… practice singing along with the audio chants while simultaneously following along with the sheet music… so I could remember the neume visual figures and their corresponding sounds…

The only other problem then is knowing what to practice ahead of time… which requires being able to navigate the LU… and other appropriate books… If I can make it actually look like I know what I am doing, then I can probably fudge the rest of it with the schola’s director… 😃

The other thing is… I just want to pray… I find that when I listen to Gregorian Chant… well, except for at mass as background music - it’s really kind of monotonous and boring… BUT… if I focus on the literal meanings of the words, whereby the music is merely accompaniment, I really tend to enjoy the chants… They “appear” less of a distraction and more of a support… almost like a sort of centering prayer… I think this is an okay interpretation because one time Saint Francis urged his friars to sing but NOT to lose the meaning of the words… So it really makes a lot of sense to put the literal meanings of the chants first, and then the music just makes a lot more sense… Being able to thus navigate my way through the old Latin texts and songs should add greater meaning to my prayers… I not only have the music there, but also the words… and it all comes together…

So I thank you all again!!!

Happy Feast of Saint Gregory Everyone!

Blessings,

wm
 
William777 said:
Aye, that is true… I knew it, but didnt catch it…

But does it change his intention, i.e. what he meant though? That some pieces might get left out of the LU?

Blessings,

wm
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I haven’t examined your list in detail. Any chants pertaining to the Mass will be in the LU or GR. The GR will of course be for the OF Mass, the LU for the EF so there might be differences in particular for year B in the OF.

I notice the list includes a troped Kyrie. That is likely from an ancient manuscript, I think troped Kyries were abolished around the time of Trent. So that will be in neither the LU or GR.
 
OraLabora said:
II notice the list includes a troped Kyrie. That is likely from an ancient manuscript, I think troped Kyries were abolished around the time of Trent. So that will be in neither the LU or GR.
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That’s interesting.

Going to digress for a moment, as my question has largely been well-answered at this point…

Digression Question - Why was the Kyrie abolished @ Trent? But some still say the Kyrie now?

Learning all this stuff is so cool.

wm
 
OraLabora said:
That comes as news to me. They are Benedictines of the Solesmes Congregation:

Santo Domingo de Silos
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Uh, not sure what I was thinking there, except to say it was late at night. Yes, Benedictines. In any event, I am quite confident that they do not sing everything exactly as it appears in the books commonly in use, which one can easily confirm by listening to the opening of Alleluia, Beatus vir qui suffert and comparing the lengthening of the first neumes on the syllables le and lu with the chant as it is printed in the LU. Since I don’t know anything about Gregorian semiology, Mocquereau vs. Cardine, Vatican vs. Solesmes, etc., I can’t say whether this is attributable to selecting one methodology over another, or to retaining a usage at this monastery that predates the reformed editions in question, or simply to an artistic choice.
OraLabora said:
I haven’t examined your list in detail. Any chants pertaining to the Mass will be in the LU or GR. The GR will of course be for the OF Mass, the LU for the EF so there might be differences in particular for year B in the OF.

I notice the list includes a troped Kyrie. That is likely from an ancient manuscript, I think troped Kyries were abolished around the time of Trent. So that will be in neither the LU or GR.
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I think you are right that there is a GR for the reformed Mass (1974?), but most people would probably have the 1961, Tridentine, edition in mind when they refer to the Graduale Romanum.
 
William777 said:
That’s interesting.

Going to digress for a moment, as my question has largely been well-answered at this point…

Digression Question - Why was the Kyrie abolished @ Trent? But some still say the Kyrie now?

Learning all this stuff is so cool.

wm
Click to expand...
The Kyrie was not abolished at Trent. What was abolished in the wake of Trent (the documents of the Council itself do not say anything about it) was the very common practice of troping Kyries (and other parts of the Ordinary). A “trope,” in this sense, is words inserted in between the official words of a chant. For instance, the first three invocations of the Kyrie go like this:
Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.
But the first three invocation of the troped Kyrie Fons bonitatis (your Track 18) go like this:
Kyrie, fons bonitatis, Pater ingenite, a quo bona cuncta procedunt: eleison.
Kyrie, qui pati Natum mundi pro crimine, ipsum ut salvaret misisti: eleison.
Kyrie, qui septiformis dans dona Pneumatis, a quo carlum, terra replentur: eleison.
Here is an example of a troped Gloria:
Gloria in excelsis deo, &c.: Deus invisibilis rex angelorum altissime.
Laudamus te: Qui astra solum mare mirabile ordine regis deus.
Benedicimus te: Cui assistunt omnia celestia terrestria et infernalia rex.
Adoramus te: Eterno regem munia laudum canamus eia.
Glorificamus te: Sanctam maiestatem tuam poscentes devote.
Gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam: Omnipotens altissime verbum patris et genite.
Etc.
When you look at the “names” of settings of the Ordinary (Lux et origo, Orbis factor, etc.), these come from the first words of the Kyrie trope. Generally the melodies were written for the tropes, and make a lot more sense when you hear them that way. But at some point under St. Pius V it was decided to get rid of all these “medievalisms,” and now you have to look hard to find them. Some very sublime religious poetry got the axe from the “reformers” and liturgical experts of 500 years ago, unfortunately.
 
MarkThompson said:
I think you are right that there is a GR for the reformed Mass (1974?), but most people would probably have the 1961, Tridentine, edition in mind when they refer to the Graduale Romanum.
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Yes, 1974 put out by the indefatigable monks of Solesmes. The more interesting edition is the Triplex edition, which also has the neumes of Laon and St. Gall, and can provide some more subtle interpretations, which is the one I use (I chant in a small schola and go to Mass every Sunday at a local Benedictine abbey that uses the Gregorian Propers and Ordinary every day).

As for the troped Kyries, thanks for the timing details, I knew it was some time around Trent.

For the OP, for another example of what a troped Kyrie sounds like, here’s the troped version of Kyrie XI “Orbis Factor”:

Orbis Factor

I find it hauntingly beautiful and as you note a great loss to the Church. Isn’t it odd that it isn’t only Vatican II that is to blame with throwing out some good stuff…

Here are the words:
  1. Orbis factor rex aeterne, eleison
  2. Pietatis fons immense, eleison
  3. Noxas omnes nostras pelle, eleison
  4. Christe qui lux es mundi dator vitae, eleison
  5. Arte laesos daemonis intuere, eleison
  6. Conservans te credentes confirmansque, eleison
  7. Patrem tuum teque flamen utrorumque, eleison
  8. Deum scimus unum atque trinum esse, eleison
  9. Clemens nobis adsis paraclite ut vivamus in te, eleison.
Translation:
  1. Maker of the world, King eternal, have mercy upon us.
  2. O immense source of pity, have mercy upon us.
  3. Drive off all our evils, have mercy upon us.
  4. Christ who art the light of the world and giver of life, have mercy upon us.
  5. Consider the wounds produced by the devil’s art, have mercy upon us.
  6. Keeping and confirming thy believers, have mercy upon us.
  7. Thou and thy Father, an equal light, have mercy upon us.
  8. We know that God is one and three, have mercy upon us.
  9. Thou, merciful unto us, art present with the Holy Spirit that we might live in thee, have mercy upon us.
And I just found this, Kyrie Fons Bonitatis that the OP referred to:

Kyrie Fons Bonitatis
 
MarkThompson said:
When you look at the “names” of settings of the Ordinary (Lux et origo, Orbis factor, etc.), these come from the first words of the Kyrie trope. Generally the melodies were written for the tropes, and make a lot more sense when you hear them that way. But at some point under St. Pius V it was decided to get rid of all these “medievalisms,” and now you have to look hard to find them. Some very sublime religious poetry got the axe from the “reformers” and liturgical experts of 500 years ago, unfortunately.
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Mark, are you referring to something like this?

It sounds beautiful.
 
TheExorcist said:
THANKS!! This will help immensely, at least when I get my Liber on Thursday!

Charles
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Glad that was helpful!
TrueLight said:
Mark, are you referring to something like this?

It sounds beautiful.
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Yes, exactly.

The Kyrie tropes are the most famous, but this is to be regretted, as it means people often forget or are even ignorant about the troping of other parts of the Ordinary. I gave a Gloria above; here is an example of a troped Sanctus from the tenth century:
O lux indeficiens, pax atque summa trinitas, tibi virgineus chorus semper proclamat dicens: Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Domine [sic] Deus Sabaoth.
O quam pretiosa est caelicolarum legio, qui incendentes amore proclamant in excelsis: Pleni sunt caeli et terra cloria tua; Hosanna in excelsis.
O benedicte Deus, tibimet clasissimus ordo nunc benedicit ovans, qui regis astra polum; Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini; Hosanna in excelsis.
 
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