Guevedoces the extraordinary case of males born looking like girls and only grow penis at puberty

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Odell

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vice.com/read/guevedoces-boys-dont-grow-a-penis-until-age-12-interview-dr-michael-mosley-876?utm_source=vicefbus
How much do we know about why this happens?
We know a lot now. It’s quite strange and very compelling, the idea that you start to approach puberty and change from being a girl to a boy and grow a penis. The reasons for it go way back to the womb. We know that up to about six weeks we’re neither male nor female. It’s only then that, if you have an XY chromosome, the Y chromosome releases testosterone —and a particularly potent form of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone.
Im confused doesn’t the very fact that you have a XY or Y chromosome determine whether you’re male or female??

Are they not making physical genital differences relevant only to reinforce gender stereotypes?

What us your take on this?
 
vice.com/read/guevedoces-boys-dont-grow-a-penis-until-age-12-interview-dr-michael-mosley-876?utm_source=vicefbus

Im confused doesn’t the very fact that you have a XY or Y chromosome determine whether you’re male or female??

Are they not making physical genital differences relevant only to reinforce gender stereotypes?

What us your take on this?
These children are males that at birth appear female. The lack of a hormone causes the birth defect which seems to correct itself at puberty when hormone production increases.

It is interesting though that a great deal of these cases are within certain families.
 
This condition has always existed in human life, but is being publicized now to reinforce the current idea that “gender” is fluid or ambiguous.

It is nothing of the kind. These kids are male. They just had an abnormal phenotype during their childhood.

It is no surprise that this seems to “run in families” (i.e., genetic). The entire human body is genetic, as are quirks in its organ systems.

ICXC NIKA.
 
vice.com/read/guevedoces-boys-dont-grow-a-penis-until-age-12-interview-dr-michael-mosley-876?utm_source=vicefbus

Im confused doesn’t the very fact that you have a XY or Y chromosome determine whether you’re male or female??

Are they not making physical genital differences relevant only to reinforce gender stereotypes?

What us your take on this?
Genetic tests are rarely done, because of expense.

If someone appears to be normal, of either “gender,” there would be no reason to do it.

ICXC NIKA
 
Im confused doesn’t the very fact that you have a XY or Y chromosome determine whether you’re male or female??
No. There are all sorts of abnormalities that affect the sex chromosomes that can throw this simple XX/XY system out of whack. Moreover one’s gene expression is arguably more important to one’s final “result” than the genetics itself. One genotype can produce many possible phenotypes depending on when genes activate. (Or, at least, this is what I’ve been taught. I’m not a biologist)
 
No. There are all sorts of abnormalities that affect the sex chromosomes that can throw this simple XX/XY system out of whack. Moreover one’s gene expression is arguably more important to one’s final “result” than the genetics itself. One genotype can produce many possible phenotypes depending on when genes activate. (Or, at least, this is what I’ve been taught. I’m not a biologist)
Thanks for your contribution. I know little of the biology myself so I am only relying on what seems logical to me.

I think as a society we make these so called abnormalities the focus and essentialy loose what makes male and female destinctive. Yes there are exceptions, yes there are extremes but generally the phenotype matches the chromosome. Which makes our sex chromosomes crucial all along. When we say there are abnormalities we are essentially saying there is a disorder contrary to one’s own (XX, XY) nature.

Agree, disagree??

Odell
 
Well, fish change genders all the time. Especially fish that live in polluted rivers. I have a parakeet and I’m not sure if it’s a him or a her because his nose keeps changing color. The girl parakeet has a tan nose, and the boy has a blue nose.

The female parakeet can be said to be a brown nose!
 
Well, fish change genders all the time. Especially fish that live in polluted rivers. I have a parakeet and I’m not sure if it’s a him or a her because his nose keeps changing color. The girl parakeet has a tan nose, and the boy has a blue nose.

The female parakeet can be said to be a brown nose!
But do they change genders or do they change phenotypes and does this not reinforce gender stereotypes?
 
Thanks for your contribution. I know little of the biology myself so I am only relying on what seems logical to me.

I think as a society we make these so called abnormalities the focus and essentialy loose what makes male and female destinctive. Yes there are exceptions, yes there are extremes but generally the phenotype matches the chromosome. Which makes our sex chromosomes crucial all along. When we say there are abnormalities we are essentially saying there is a disorder contrary to one’s own (XX, XY) nature.

Agree, disagree??

Odell
I have to disagree, on a philosophical level. Generalities are just such, statistics. I don’t think that it implies a ‘nature’. But we could go down a long rabbit hole with that thread, and it’s slightly off what I want to say. Also it’ll lead to a ton of angry posts so I’ll move on to my point.

The fact that there are these exceptions (a whole lot of them, globally) I think demonstrates that one’s genetics are not a solid indicator to what one’s sex will be. If I recall correctly (I don’t have the case studies in front of me so I’ll need to look into it) it’s possible (shown?) that someone can be born with an XXY chromosome set-up, but the Y never activates, resulting in a perfectly normal girl. Normally XXY results in a very feminine male. So we’ve got a situation where someone is genetically male, but, is in fact a female.

Even if I remembered wrong above, there’s also cases of intersexed people, born with ambiguous sex organs. It’s easy to dismiss these people as ‘non-paradigm humans’ and leave it at that. But, I don’t think that’s fair to the huge population of them on the planet, and I think it is a huge hole in the ‘there are two genders, and they conform to your genetics’ theory. We have clear counter-examples that show that a person’s sex is not necessarily tied to their genetics.
 
vice.com/read/guevedoces-boys-dont-grow-a-penis-until-age-12-interview-dr-michael-mosley-876?utm_source=vicefbus

Im confused doesn’t the very fact that you have a XY or Y chromosome determine whether you’re male or female??

Are they not making physical genital differences relevant only to reinforce gender stereotypes?

What us your take on this?
Here’s my understanding: the body’s default is to be female, but there is a process in embryonic development which causes a male outcome instead. That process is kickstarted by a single gene, located on the Y chromosome, called SRY (sex-determining region Y), also known as testis determining factor (TDF). In the normal case, an XX becomes female because there is no SRY, whereas XY becomes male because Y contains SRY. However, if a Y chromosome’s SRY gene is damaged, the outcome will be an XY female (Swyer syndrome, aka XY gonadal dysgenesis); conversely, if the SRY gene is somehow translocated to another chromosome, you can end up with an XX male (de la Chapelle syndrome, aka XX male syndrome). Since SRY only kickstarts the process, and there are a number of subsequent steps, it is also possible for there to be SRY-positive XY females, where one of the genes responsible for one of the subsequent steps is damaged.

The Y chromosome is somewhat sparse, there’s not a huge amount there. Of course, there’s SRY. There’s a few genes which are slight variations of genes found elsewhere (e.g. the tooth enamel gene AMELY, where a very similar and functionally equivalent gene AMELX is found on the X chromosome), and also a bunch of genes involved in spermatogenesis (such as DAZ1, DAZ2, AZF1). This later point is part of why XX males are infertile, because lacking a Y chromosome they lack some essential spermatogenesis genes. (However, one should not think that genes required for spermatogenesis are only found on the Y chromosome - there are also a bunch of spermatogenesis genes on other chromosomes - in females, these genes are present, but they go unused.)

So, when people say XX=female and XY=male, that’s a simplification, albeit one which works 99.9% of the time. To say SRY-positive=male and SRY-negative=female is more accurate, although that is a simplification too. Since biological sex is a complex interaction of many factors, there is no one single factor which is by itself completely determinative. Of course, in the vast majority of cases, it is nonetheless clear to which biological sex a person belongs; but there are some very rare cases in which it is not very clear, and a person’s own self-identification is arguably a relevant factor then. (This later point is not a reference to transsexualism, since most transsexuals have no identifiable genetic abnormalities.)

(Also of interest - while humans, and a number of other animals, use the XY sex determination system, some other parts of the animal kingdom, such as birds and some fish and insects, use a different system instead - ZW. In XY, females have two identical chromosomes (XX) while males have two different (XY). In ZW, males have two identical chromosomes (ZZ), while females have two different (ZW). In XY, the gender of the offspring is determined by the sperm; by contrast, in ZW, the gender of the offspring is determined by the ovum. While in humans, female is the default, in many ZW animals, male is the default instead.)

Simon
 
This condition has always existed in human life, but is being publicized now to reinforce the current idea that “gender” is fluid or ambiguous.

It is nothing of the kind. These kids are male. They just had an abnormal phenotype during their childhood.

It is no surprise that this seems to “run in families” (i.e., genetic). The entire human body is genetic, as are quirks in its organ systems.

ICXC NIKA.
There are also cases of people who have the female phenotype all their life, but are actually genetically XY. Many may not even know about their genetic condition as you don’t normally test it you have no reason to be suspicious. The condition is especially prevalent among female athletes,as these women tend to be better at athletics than regular women, which is why there is talk about gender testing in professional sports. I think some years ago an female athlete was actually disqualified on account of being a man geneticqally. XY women are normally unable to have children.

Your genes program your gender but the hormones actually put it into effect and a hormone imbalance can cause the body to develop the other way.

This is a scientific phenomenon and has nothing to do with transgenderism.
 
Well, fish change genders all the time. Especially fish that live in polluted rivers. I have a parakeet and I’m not sure if it’s a him or a her because his nose keeps changing color. The girl parakeet has a tan nose, and the boy has a blue nose.

The female parakeet can be said to be a brown nose!
The XY gender trigger occurs in humans and some other speices but is not universal across all of nature.

In some reptiles for example the gender is triggered by temperature at incubation. In some social insects the gender can even be “chosen” by the carers that feed the larva and is triggered by the food they give. Generally there are only females in the colony and males are made specifically for reproductive purposes and are not known to serve any further purpose beyond this. Some molluscs even switch genders during their life cycle. Some plants are genderless and have sexual parts for both genders but there are plants that have specific genders and the mechanisms triggering these are quite different to those of the animal worlöd.

Extrapolating from plants or animals to humans is thus not always helpful.
 
Your genes program your gender but the hormones actually put it into effect and a hormone imbalance can cause the body to develop the other way.

This is a scientific phenomenon and has nothing to do with transgenderism.
How does it not? To me this does make gender totally ambiguous. I came here to find a clear straightforward understanding of gender and Catholic anthropology and am only find more confusion. How can the science and Catholic anthropology coexist with this scientific phenomenon??
 
Thanks for your contribution. I know little of the biology myself so I am only relying on what seems logical to me.

I think as a society we make these so called abnormalities the focus and essentialy loose what makes male and female destinctive. Yes there are exceptions, yes there are extremes but generally the phenotype matches the chromosome. Which makes our sex chromosomes crucial all along. When we say there are abnormalities we are essentially saying there is a disorder contrary to one’s own (XX, XY) nature.

Agree, disagree??

Odell
Good point.

I’d go further and say that we are calling these anomalies “normal variations” and using them to redefine the normal human body; but that ultimately makes normalcy meaningless.

Yes, it occurs naturally, and yes it runs in families. But so does color blindness; yet no one would disagree that the human body, normally, sees colors clearly.

ICXC NIKA
 
Good point.

I’d go further and say that we are calling these anomalies “normal variations” and using them to redefine the normal human body; but that ultimately makes normalcy meaningless.

Yes, it occurs naturally, and yes it runs in families. But so does color blindness; yet no one would disagree that the human body, normally, sees colors clearly.

ICXC NIKA
Or it is the nature of the (human) eye to see color.
 
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